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Yeah, yeah. Hello, everyone. I'm Valerie Coleman. Morris. I'm standing outside courtroom number one of the Ron Dellums Federal office building in downtown Oakland. I am about to interview Senior Judge Sandra Brown Armstrong. I met her the summer of 1970 when I interviewed her because she was

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the first African American police woman of the Oakland Police Department. It was followed by three presidential appointments. Indeed, 50 years of public life and service. So we are just continuing our conversation. Number one. I just need to let you know how thrilled I was at our

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reunion. I can't believe the Valley. I absolutely cannot believe it. And you look absolutely gorgeous. I can't believe a day has passed because it certainly doesn't show on you. Well, that is very kind. We know that we are kindred spirits with age, the decade in which

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we grew up and the things that we do. So I am just delighted to be able to sit here and what I'm calling your house. The courtroom. This is the place where you have thrived for a long time. That's right. I actually love it. You know,

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um, law school was actually the most the first educational experience that I had in my life that I really enjoyed. I did well in school in general, but law school, I I loved it and I went to law school for one purpose, and that was to

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be a trial lawyer because I felt that what lawyers do they do in the courtroom? I loved the competitiveness. I loved the the fact that I mastered the rules of evidence. The rules of evidence are like rules of the road if you know how to drive,

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and you need to know the rules of the road the same thing as in the courtroom. And it used to thrill me to to handle cases where people would underestimate me. But if you're in command of the rules of evidence, you're in command in the courtroom,

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and I love that. I love convincing a jury of my peers my way. I I just enjoyed the entire process as a trial lawyer. And then, of course, the next. The next natural progression is, is the bench. When I think about how you evaluate things, that's

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what I remember. Even all those years ago. Evaluation has always been a very critical part of your thinking. How has that helped you continue to thrive now, as in your position is senior touch Well, basically, being able to evaluate is part of what lawyers do. That's

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that's part of the process that we learned in law school. That is how to analyze and evaluate the the merits of a case based upon your understanding again of the rules of evidence of what will come in, what will come and go out. And so it's

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incredibly important. You know, during my time as a lawyer, I was a prosecutor on both on the state level and the federal level. And you have to be able to evaluate cases that are presented to you by law enforcement to know whether or not these cases

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are are are good or whether they're not. But that's basically the most important thing that a lawyer does is to be able to appropriately evaluate the case, to determine the merits so that you can know how to proceed the merits and knowing how to proceed makes

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me think about your family, because when we think back to your mom and dad, your father from Texas, your mom from Massachusetts but they met in San Francisco. Mississippi. One Mississippi, two Mississippi, uh, from Mississippi. Uh, all right, then they get to San Francisco. Um, your

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your father is discharged from the army. Yes, that's right. Alameda Navy. Tell me about life there. Well, we didn't live in Alameda. We lived in Oakland. We We moved to harbor homes when they after they were married. And, uh, we moved to harbor homes in in

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Oakland for a couple of years and then moved to Brookfield Village, which is right off of 98th Avenue and, uh, in East Oakland. Uh, it was it was a wonderful life. You know, we, um we were very close knit family. I, too, had two brothers and

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two sisters, and, um, we attended the public schools. We were, you know, we were we were happy and enjoying life. Mm hmm. Public schools. Here we go. Castle, Mont. High School. Yes, Merritt College. That's where you got your eight, then on to Fresno State to be

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a look at us our time. 1969. Same time I was at San Jose State and then moving on. You wanted to work as a juvenile probation officer That's what I went to college for. I was really interested in in working as a probation officer only because

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I was interested in working on child abuse and neglect cases, cases in which Children are victims and the probation department had the jewel in division. I was very familiar with, uh so that's why that was my purpose and and that was my major and undergrad. However,

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when I finished at that time, that was a pretty popular position, I guess because they had waiting lists and just about every county. So I applied and I was on waiting lists and waiting for the position to become available. Initially, you declined the position with the

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Oakland Police Department. Is that correct? Oh, I want the details on that. Well, a friend of mine who was a lieutenant in the Police Department that time knew that I was interested in child abuse investigations. And so he I encouraged me to come and talk with

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one of the policewoman there. Now those were the days right when the Black Panthers were starting and, of course, I was born and raised in Oakland and I was. Most people lived in the neighborhood that I lived in, and I was a little reticent about working

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for the police department, and, um, I wasn't sure about what their focus was because I was more interested in kind of helping. The families were abused and neglected Children, and he really encouraged me to speak with a policewoman. So I ended up point on a ride

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on with one of the policewoman. At that time, they had four slots available for police women, and the women had to have college degrees. They had 700 plus slots for men who could come on with high school educations. Let me pause here. Are we talking double

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standard, the at least double standard. You're absolutely right. And and And to compound that further, the women could not compete against the men for advancement. So that if when you come on, even though you have more education than the men do you are never able to

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compete against them for advancement. So you would if you would just basically be doing the same thing for 20 years if you stayed there. So but any in any event, I I wouldn't have had a right along with a police woman and I just fell in

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love with the job because it was just primarily investigating child abuse cases and doing exactly what I wanted to do. But I was also very expensive to the fact that I would be the first African American female on the force, and I knew that I was

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not really interested in doing that, that my my real desire was to be a probation officer. So I told him very candidly that when they offered me the job that, you know, I really appreciate it. But, you know, recognizing that I'd be the first African American,

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I would hate to leave them in that position, knowing that if the position comes up the probation department, I would leave. He said, Thank you very much for your honesty. We appreciate that, but no one can tell us they're gonna be here for a week, a

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month or two years, he said. If you want the job or whatever period of time you take it, it's yours. And so I said, Okay, fine, I'll take it. Seven years later, I was leaving, so I was there a lot longer than even I anticipated. That

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turned out to be probably the pivotal point in my life. Why? Because that is what generated my interest in the law at the time that I was working for the Police Department. After after I had been there for about three years, I had learned basically all

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there was to learn in that position, and I was starting to feel stagnant. I don't like that feeling at all, so I started looking around for other things to do. But it was interesting how you by how some people buy into the system because they were

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there was so much resistance. I want you to tell a couple of stories about the resistance that I remember, um, sitting in a sitting on the floor in in one of the I think it was juvenile division and we were all talking about, uh, the women

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now coming on the force. Uh, because I had I had volunteered to help recruit. So one guy said, Well, Sandy, they call me Sandy. They said, you know, the problem that I have with women we were talking philosophically, just about the women in general, on the

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forced. The problem that I have with women coming on the forces that, you know if I get dispatched to an emergency call and I have a woman partner, he said. If something happens, he said, my person instinct will be to protect turn. I could lose my

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life and I said and see, a lot of people came up with that and I said, What's the? Whose problem is that? He said, What do you mean? I said, Who's problem? Is that because you need to be retrained? Should a woman be your problem job

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because you need to be retrained? It was almost a sign of the times. It was where we were feeling as if we were being tested, double tested as compared to our male counterparts doing the same job. That's right. I'm not sure how much things have changed,

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though they have changed. But there will always be some other challenges. That's just kind of a gender specific thing. Yeah, but you were in the midst of it as the first. So let's I'm gonna take you back a little bit again. So we talked about the

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police department, but then you began studying law U C s f well, The impetus was the stagnation that that the double standard was creating from at the Police Department, and I just was not willing to stay there for 20 years and do the same thing. I

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mean, I was doing a few other I was taking the police academies and working with the hospital was trying to make sure they weren't aware of their statutory reporting obligations. I was doing a few more things, but I wasn't learning anything anymore, and that bothered me.

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And so the impetus of my going to law school was that was, was to to get into I'm a learning position, and when I started going to law school, I really loved law school. Um, it was difficult at first because I was working full time during

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the day and I was going to school at night. And so it was. It was a challenge, but I loved it. It was almost like recreational reading for me, which made it easier for me to to to do it. And even though I was most of

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the time tired, I'm actually going to fast forward a bit because something that you just said critically important when you talk about being in law school and the struggle and the amount of time and all of that you have for a very long time since the

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late eighties made sure that other young women young people who want law have a family affair with you and another justice making sure that you have these opportunities for fireside chats. Let's just talk now about the fireside chats and the importance, because that's the next generation.

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You know, Back in 1989 there were a couple of young ladies that came to us, and they were having a very difficult time acclimating to law school. So they asked us if we had some time to talk with them. And of course, we said Yes. So

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they came over and we sat on the floor and just, you know, had chips and drinks and just sat and talked about life and law school in general and and until we got them to a different place. And the next year they called and said, We

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have a few more friends who are having the same problem. Do you have time so fast? Forward to now 2000 and 16. We've been doing it every year since 1989 usually at my home or judges. Justice Jenkins home We we talk about not only about law

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school, but about life and some of the challenges that they're struggling because most of it is just These young people are for the first time in their lives, on their own, and most of them are the rocks and their families. They've always been people that their

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families have looked to for support. Most of them are first generation college graduates, Um, so they don't have mother fathers or uncles and aunts who have gone through law school or through college. And because they're they're first generation college graduates and because they've always been smart,

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they've always been able to handle everybody. Else's problems included their family. Their families have a hard time taking them seriously when they say they're having a hard time, they say, Are you? You've always been able to do it. You'll you'll be able to do it. Don't

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worry about it, you know, and and and that's that's even more troubling because that that frustrates them even more. And so a lot of the students that we have in parasite for the first time in their lives. They're questioning their competence. And they're, um they're frustrated.

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And so what we try to do is help them with their perspective, to understand that what they're going through is normal. It's not anyone or anything that they've gone through or they're going through. Somebody else has gone through already, and we share personal experiences with them.

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Let them know that. You know, I wasn't always a federal judge. At one point, I was where you are and the challenges that I that I didn't do it and surrounding are some of them are probably more difficult than the ones that you are. But I

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will share personal our personal lives as well as experiences in law school. So they will have a perspective that that that they're okay. You share a lot of personal experiences. Yes, I do. You even shared one with them about. Okay, so there may be someone in

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your life. Don't let their worries necessarily be your worries. Would you tell us a little about that? Yes. I was dating a guy, actually were engaged for a minute. And you know, when I started going to law school, actually, I tried to tried to encourage him

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to go to law school because I was kind of thinking we would probably grew apart if he didn't and he wasn't interested in going to law school. So I went. And since I was working full time during the day and and I would study every night

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after I would get home from school, my day would go, I would start. I would I would start from home about eight o'clock and I would work until five. I jump in my car driver San Francisco at six and go to class and 6 to 10.

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I get home by 11 o'clock, and that was That was every night and then I was studying every on Friday nights and Saturday and about around about Sunday, about five o'clock, I'd be completed with my studying, and then we could go to dinner and a movie

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or something. And so at some point he told me that he wasn't happy, you know? And I said, Well, um, I'm not responsible for your happiness. You are. This is a priority for me, So if this doesn't work, then doesn't work. But what I tell the

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students is they have to decide whether they're gonna follow, they're men or their dream. I chose my dream. I'm not. I don't judge anyone from whatever decision they make, but the fact is you can't do both of them. Well, that story to me is very important

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because so many times young people are just trying to figure out how do I balance? And when's the last time you had a 50 50 day? You know, you have to integrate life and make some choices. One other comment I want you to make with regard

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to the mentoring, the active mentoring of students. So you did the students who are in law school. But then they graduate. Don't they need help there, too? They do, And we and and we started a group a couple of years ago for students who are transitioning

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from the study of law to the practice of law. And so we had them over my my house, and we started talking about some of the issues that they're that they're dealing with. And I usually invite practicing lawyers, too, and I shouldn't sit down for the

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for the fire side. We have a lot of a lot of, uh, practicing lawyers and judges have come, and we invited people from all disciplines before the for the new lawyers, even more important, to have practicing lawyers who are there who can help them, uh, in

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terms of job opportunities as well. But most of the issues that that the lawyers who are transitioning have a lot of them have not had opportunities to work, so they don't have job references. Um, and so what we try to do is look for ways to

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create those opportunities for them. And one of the ways that I suggested to them was to if they were interested in X turning in my chambers, that that would that would, I'd make that available to them. In that way, I could supervise them, developing their research

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and their writing, and and perhaps put them in a better position to look for a job. And we've had at least one woman who put me down as a reference. I was thrilled to be able to give her a reference, and she was able to get

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a job, but she loves. So what we try to do is in addition to motivating them, empowering them, giving them perspective and just helping them on their pathway. And we tell them we are their extended family. So we're here, and if they need to talk, then

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they can ventilate or or have questions about anything. They can pick up a telephone and call us because we are invested in their success as much as their families are, and we're as proud of them as their families are. And if there's we are where they

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want to be, and since we are where they want to be, that we can offer them whatever guidance we that they need. So what I'd like to get to now is Oakland. You were born and raised here. You love this city. You do. You spent time

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and energy and making it good and making it work and hoping that it will move forward in a positive way. With that in mind, can you explain your genuine faith in the system, even though sometimes the public may say there was that trial, but the verdict

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wasn't what we thought it should be. You would explain to them that the verdict may not be what you wanted it to be, but the system work. I frankly believe that most jurors are are very good about following the law there. Uh, they take their jobs

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seriously. Um, and they make decisions based upon the instructions that were given by the judge. Unfortunately, when you see sound bites on television or you even hear here, say, or or things on television, those are not the things that the jurors are considering. Uh, and and

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half the time the public is not aware of most of the of the evidence that the jury is considering. But I I just I do think that just because the jury's decision differs from yours does not is not an indication that the system doesn't work. The

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system works as it's intended. The judge, uh, presides over the case. The lawyers, your lawyer and the other lawyer tried the case. The jury takes all the evidence, and then they make a decision based upon their evaluation of the evidence is before them. That's the way

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it works. Whether the result is what you would you would like to have seen or not is not determinative of as to whether the system works, all right. 2012. There was also something major that happened and that was 2012. You received your master's in divinity from

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Pacific School of Religion. Yes. Divine intervention has been a very important part of your career. Actually, I think the divine intervention started. Oh, actually, the beginning of my life. I don't want to start that far back, though. But let's say you want to stay with my

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career, starting with the police department. The police department is not a place that I was interested in. I would never have gone to the police department. Uh, that's not a place that I was interested in. You know what I have even thought about but ended up

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going to the police department. Law school was not something that was in my radar until I got to the police department and worked there for a while. And then I ended up going to law school. Um, after the first semester, as I indicated, you I was

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going to leave law school. But I guess I was not. I mean, I literally left not intending to go back on the second the second semester. Um, but I'm thinking divine intervention again. That wasn't meant to happen. Dean called me and I started back in school,

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and then I graduated and did well. I ended up deciding to go to, uh, seminary because I was initially planning on teaching law and religion. I always I always thought that both venues, um, tend to largely ignore the other law and and Seminary Seminary. They don't

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pay any attention to the law and the law. Law schools don't pay a lot of attention to religion. And so I thought maybe we could marry the two because they could both benefit from a healthy infusion of information from the other. Most of my life, I

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have always thought that I was being prepared for something, and I just My mantra was, When you get me to the place where you want me to be, just give me the ability to discern which want me to do in the courage to do it, because

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I I could never understand how Why me? I mean, I was born and raised in East Oakland, but there's a lot of people born and raised in the spoken, and I don't think I'm more deserving. And I didn't work any harder than anybody else did. Maybe

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some people I work harder than but But I've just been My whole life has just fallen into place. When I look back over my life, I do a retrospective. I can I can tell you exactly why he put me in every single position and how each

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position helped advance something that was to come in the future. And now I can see that. And then the same thing happened. I lost my sister. I had just gotten married. I've been married for a year and we were living. We had just moved to Washington,

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D. C. When I start working the Department of Justice and we had a home built and the home was like four bedrooms home and was and we had just finished it. And three weeks later, my sister was died and she had four Children, and my husband

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said, Just bring them all home because we have space for that. Nobody else can take care of the way we can literally within weeks of the home being completed. You know, we had space for for these Children. I just believe all that happened timing and everything

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happens for a reason. Everything really does happen for a reason and as you tell that story. That's another part of our quiet shared history. That week, that day, that interview that you were so gracious. I just really appreciated that too Well, blessings of light to those

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Children that you took in the one that you birthed. And to all the ones that you are mentoring. As you have told them, they are your extended family. And that's divine intervention. Thank you so much. Judge Armstrong. Your friends. You are so welcome. I have thoroughly

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enjoyed seeing you again. Can't believe it's been 50 years. Let's not wait. 50 more. Exactly. Thank you. You're welcome. Mm mm. Yeah, Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm.