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well, I I think the critical question is how you, how might one define integration? And typically in the past, uh educators have defined integration in terms of a very few or limited number of negro or non white youngsters being included and a formerly all white school

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program. Uh and I think what happens is essentially this, I don't, there is no data to support the point of view that there is something magical that occurs when negro youngsters suddenly enter in a formerly all white school that's related to facilitating academic achievement. Uh there

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are factors that are highly relevant to all white school programs and all white systems that are highly correlated with academic achievement. For example, very competent teachers, uh, many supplies being available, consulting services that are available and most important of all parents and teachers who are convinced

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that their young people can learn when negro youngsters arrive in this kind of environment. They tend to benefit from the many positive ramifications of a strong educational system. I suspect that if you would place youngsters in a formerly all white school system in which the educational

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achievement of white students is low, the training of teachers in that school system is awfully low. You would find that you would uh, negro youngsters would have difficulty achieving academically as with white youngsters in that same system. So there's nothing magical about integration. This is why

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I think there's a real push uh and some uh negro communities for what they term all black quality education. I think we can do a much better job in school communities that are essentially homogeneous in terms of race, essentially all negro I think to another critical

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consideration as a parent here, it's in terms of what I sometimes refer to as the building of democratic attitudes, even though you can facilitate academic achievement within an all white community or an all black community or an all mexican american community, if in fact the youngsters

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are going to be called upon to compete with each other as adults, negroes do not work in an all negro world. Chinese in san Francisco do not work in an all chinese world. Mexican americans in corpus Christi texas do not work in an all mexican american

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world. If youngsters are going to be called to compete, call upon to compete with with each other and the so called multiracial working pot. While this competition should start within the school system and start where at kindergarten level, at the kindergarten level, in your view, does

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it have to go all the way through it Should, If we're going to speak about a democratic society now, we build you as an expert on the problems of the culturally deprived A what are the culturally deprived and b what are their special problems? Well, I

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never use the term culturally deprived. I I think we can identify the youngsters and most school communities who may suffer an economic deficit, they may suffer an educational deficit. An educational deficit in the sense that they're reading 2.5 or three years below grade level or the

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math skills might be 3.5 or four years below grade level, They may suffer an economic deficit and that their family has five youngsters and a total income of only 2800 a year. But when we speak of a cultural deficit, it brings in ramifications that are difficult

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to delineate or to categorize or to spell out. Am I to say that because the youngster does not attend the opera on opening night, that he's culturally deprived. Am I to say that because he doesn't understand a careful block that is culturally deprived. Am I to

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say that he enjoyed because he enjoys the Beatles and the Supremes and the temptations that he's culturally deprived. I don't think we can make this kind of value judgment, but we can precisely speak about economic and and educational deprivation. Now this affects many youngsters throughout the

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country and many of the young people who are affected by by poverty conditions, which leads readily to educational deficits. They tend to be members of minority groups. You will find that within this school population, the most significant problem is their inability to read an inability to

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perform well when confronted with math problems. Youngsters are in demonstration programs with smaller classes, good consultants, they're reading achievement, their math achievement, their social studies achievement. It tends to accelerate very rapidly with teachers who are dedicated and concerned and of the opinion that young people can

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learn and who will have the necessary materials and support youngsters do learn.