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Yeah, yeah. Before history beyond imagination. Clash of the Titans Coming Thursday, November 1st two, Channel two. There's only 12 today. I have ordered the closure of 14 commercial establishments which promote and profit from the spread of AIDS, a sexually transmitted fatal disease. That is a blatant

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act of terrorism. Totalitarian in Russia would expect things like that. Not here. This is America after all, isn't it freedom of choice? What happened to that? Make no mistake about these. 14 establishments are not fostering gay liberation. They are fostering death in disease. You can't just

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wave a wand and closed down 14 businesses in the city which has been operating for years. In a legal fashion, you have to employ due process. It is my belief that if these were heterosexual establishments and the same communicable disease nature was present in those establishments,

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They would have been shut down a long time ago. Yeah, if you have questions about San Francisco's gay bathhouse issue called Dr Mervyn Silverman right now on open line. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Good evening, everybody. I'm Johnny Barnes Selvin, and this is

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open line. Dr. Mervyn Silverman is here tonight to answer your questions. about his decision to close 14 of San Francisco's gay bath houses and sex clubs. So please call him right now on open line with your questions. Welcome. This evening I know you've been a very

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busy man. It has been a busy week. What is it that brought you to the point this past week, This past Tuesday of issuing that directive to close those 14? Well, a number of things, Johnny First, we had gotten an education program in place over the

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last 18 months, which has been very effective throughout the gay community. And in fact, we've seen a reduction in the venereal disease rate of over 75%. So we now look that we're looking at another peace, if you will, in this puzzle, which were the bath houses,

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sex clubs, bookstores, theaters where these entrepreneurs, if you were, if you will, were fostering the spread promoting the spread of the disease by allowing by encouraging by having the physical setting and by obviously with the way in which they encourage people to come there and use

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the facilities to spread this disease. And it was my feeling that based on the fact that we now know it's a virus We now know about how many people are exposed to have been exposed to this disease in San Francisco, that it is a fatal disease,

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Uh, and that we, by checking in these facilities, found them to be encouraging this kind of activity. It was our belief that it was time to take this action. We felt that we had the proper documentation so that what we would do would be sustained. And

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that's the important thing. A year, a year ago, six months ago, I don't think we could have sustained this in court. Now a number of the bath houses and sex clubs have refused to close. That was no surprise to you. No, I was sad because I

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would hope that the people who have gained so much at least monetarily from the community, uh, would have taken have some social responsibility now and remain closed. But I was wrong. And so we have to go into court. In fact, will be in court tomorrow morning.

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What makes the 14 places that you chose different from other sex clubs bath houses in San Francisco? Well, we went into each place and look for those things, that would be high risk. One of them is multiple sexual contacts. The second is the sharing of body

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fluids. And those kinds of activities took place on a number of occasions in our visits in the 14 that we closed down but did not take place in the I guess, 16 that we left open. Okay, we have a caller on line one. Good evening. You're

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on open line. Good evening. I am calling to ask this question earlier. Sometimes the day I've heard some stuff that are many cities and states that have also discovered aids within their populations. They have chosen not to close down their bath houses except leave them open

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to further educate people who have AIDS. But I like to ask Dr Silverman, Why is San Francisco closing down their bath house with bath houses when other cities are leaving them open? Further educate the people about? I guess my question would be why aren't other cities

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following our lead? We have found through studies that the educational efforts inside the bath houses have really not been very effective. I mean, it would be like posting a sign in an ice cream parlor, saying you shouldn't eat sweets or the pack the label on the

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pack of cigarettes once you've purchased it. In other words, by the time people have gotten there, that kind of education is not very effective. We do know, however, that the community, the entire gay community, is well aware of the disease, how it spread and how it

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can be prevented. Yet they still go to these facilities and unfortunately, play Russian roulette, as far as I'm concerned. Okay. Thank you very much for your call. We have another caller on line two. Good evening. You're on open line. Good evening, You, Dr. Stillman, How are

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you doing? What? I like to act. How can playing republic? How serious? Jesus can be small, widespread throughout bad houses. I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your question. What I would like you to do Explain the public television right now how disease of days can be

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spread more widespread throughout the bathhouse. Well, well, the activity and the facilities that we close. And by the way, it's not just bath houses, sex clubs, bookstores and a number of other facilities. The activity that takes place in these facilities generally involves multiple sexual contacts going

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from partner to partner to partner sharing of body fluids. That doesn't mean, however, that this activity could only take place in a bathhouse. It's just that bath houses, sex clubs and these other establishments foster and promote this kind of activity and therefore are promoting the spread

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of this disease and ultimately death. Because as far as we know today, AIDS is still a totally fatal disease. One of the question that's been asked of me is, What is the legal sex club in San Francisco? That's a good question, Johnny, because I'm not quite

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sure about the legality. I don't think any of these places have a license per se to operate. There's nothing in the ordinance. There's nothing in the that I've seen in the administrative code or anything else that has a heading that says Sex club. So I think

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these facilities just grew up, and I think probably the city over the years has just ignored, and this probably goes back 10, 15 years. Okay, let's take another call. We have a caller on line three. Good evening. You're on open line. Hello. You're on the air.

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Yes. You mentioned statistics and also a problem with that nation that you're going to take the court. Could you elaborate on that place? Well, I'm not going to get terribly specific because we are going to be in court, but the documentation and the evidence that we

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have, first of all, we now know that there is a virus which is generally believed to be the cause of AIDS. We do know that very significant percentage of the gay population has been exposed to this virus Doesn't mean they're going to get AIDS doesn't mean

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they have AIDS, but it means they've been exposed. And very likely a significant percentage may be carrying this virus and could spread it. We also know that the through inspection of these facilities that the activities that we saw taking place in the 14 establishments would lead

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to the spread of this virus. With that information, with the fact that we've had our educational program and will continue, its got to be the foundation of everything we do. But with everything we've done, we find there are still these 14 facilities and a number of

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closed on their own. But there are these 14 that continue to profit from the spread of death and disease. Okay, thank you very much for your call. I was wondering what other actions specific actions have you taken to curb the spread of AIDS? Well, the most

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important one, the one I just mentioned is education. And the two things that we've tried to do the first being education, the second disclosure. We want to be effective and to be sustained. The educational program has been effective. As I say, the statistics show that it

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has been sustained, and will be, uh, the closure. We took enough time to be sure that it would be effective and be sustained. Okay, We're going to take a call on line one. Good evening. You're on open line. Yes. Good evening, Miss Selvin and Dr Silverman.

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First of all, I wanted to commend Dr Silverman for his action. That was in the public health. And I don't think it's discriminatory, but my question centers around this. I know that the move was made with a lot of consideration of all the factors. As a

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doctor yourself, you have to look at public health and you have to look at the city and its ordinances and also the epidemiological problems. My question is this film. You've made this first step. Now, if you cannot you believe that you've isolated one area where the

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problem occurs as they public health administrator, Looking at the research you've collected, what would be the next step if you have? Perhaps you've isolated it here, and I'm not trying to catch up anything of going into people's houses and looking at their private lives. I'm not

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trying to set up that I'm wondering under your authority of the city officials, what else could you do to try to localize that problem, isolated and then try to combat? Well, I appreciate your question and, of course, your comment at the beginning of your question. Actually,

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I think you make a good point by saying you're not saying us going into people's houses were not going to do that. We're not interfering, really in The private lives of individuals were interfering really with the profits of the bathhouse, sex club and other types of

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facilities. We will be again emphasizing education will continue to do that, but we have no intention and never would go into anyone's private home. Uh, to worry about any other kind of facility except those that are charging money making money over the spread of this disease.

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And I think that it points up a very important aspect. And that is we're not dealing now with civil liberties. People still have the right to do what they want to, generally in the privacy of their home. What we are doing, though, is trying to affect

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those facilities that are profiting from this. I know I've been saying this a lot, but that puts it in a different perspective than the that of civil liberties are interfering with civil liberties. Okay, thank you very much for your call. We're going to take another caller

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on line two. Good evening. You're on open line. Yes, I am. I permitted to ask two questions. Go ahead. Yes, the first one would be Dr Silverman. Why are you ignoring the study? Done believe it came out in August by the Center for Disease Control showing

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that between two control groups of people with aids, namely one group who frequented bath houses and one group who did not. There was no increase of the frequency of AIDS amongst people who go to bath houses versus those who do not. Yes, yes, you know, it's

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unfortunate that this kind of information has been put out and misleading the public. I did receive a letter to that effect in August, shared it with the AIDS Medical Advisory Committee that I have, that it's made up of gay physicians and straight physicians and other researchers,

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and it was pretty well decided there that there was something wrong with this kind of reasoning. We then check back with CDC. They wrote a second letter which has not been published, which no one in the gay press seems to be willing to publish, which indicates

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that that was the wrong assumption. What you had. There was a comparison of two groups, one group with those who went to bath houses. The other was the group that were seen in the VD clinic. Obviously, both groups very much behaving in a similar way. What

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you have to do is compare the group that goes with the bath houses to a group in the gay community that doesn't and you'll find that there is about a 2.5 times greater risk from those who are in the gay community, General. Just a random sample

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and those that go to bath houses. Okay, what's your next question? Okay, just in reference to that In the current issue of the Sentinel, there is a statement from the man who wrote you that letter and said that he didn't disavow his study. In fact, he

00:14:00.090 - 00:14:15.110

said that the first letter he wrote you said that he had only done 254 only research 254 cases and hadn't finished his plan study of 500 that he had now finished it. And he said that his second letter told you that his studies reconfirmed the earlier

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findings and reinforce them. But that wasn't my second quest. My second question is this. As a gay person, I'm conscious of AIDS. Uh, but I also find it very difficult. Do what you and other doctors are recommending, which is be virtually celibate, or have so called

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safe sex, namely only masturbation. Now, I wanted to me sex without cheering bodily fluids might as well be no sex at all. So I'm faced with the option of either having no sex at all or becoming what you call a high risk for may go to

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the baths, have multiple sexual contacts and especially share bodily fluids. Now, Dr Silverman, I'd like to ask you, I don't know if you're gay or straight. You share bodily fluids when you have sex with your partners. And if you do, how dare you tell me and

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other gay people that we should not invoke the law against us when we do? Well, first of all, I think one can have sexual relations without sharing body fluids. Number one, number two. As a public health official concerned about the health of individuals, I think I

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have every right to tell anyone how they can conduct their lives in a way that could save their lives. And I would be remiss if I didn't do that. Okay, we're going to take a break right now. Please stay with us. We'll be right back. And

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Dr Silverman will answer more of your questions right after this message. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. For the first time on television Clash of the Titans Coming Thursday, November 1st two, Channel two. There's only one two. Welcome back to open line. I'd like to remind you that our

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number is 8740222 And we're talking about San Francisco's Health Department's decision to close the gay bath houses. At least 14 of them. We have a caller on line for Good evening. You're on open line. Good evening. I'm and I'm from San Francisco. Hello. Hello? You're on

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the air. I'm Prisca Angle, and I called from San Francisco. Now I have the doctor. Silverman, I am a taxpayer of California. And as we all well know, the aid is spread for the gay community. And those few people, those people who gap aides got it

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to blood transfusion. Now, I agree with Dr Silverman at the bathhouse. Big clothes. But why is the gay community so upset if they have their health in mind, as they want the taxpayers to come up with public funds found to find a cure for them, But

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they are not really to anticipate in these matters. Okay. Thank you. Question. Thank you for the question. It's a little unfair. Actually, the gay community has had radical changes throughout the community and have done probably more than any community in modern medicine to change behavior. It's

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difficult enough for people to stop smoking to stop drinking. And certainly something so primal, so basic to us as our sexuality to be able to change how we behave in that area, I think, is incredible. And with a reduction in the venereal disease rate of about

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75% that's a real indicator that the gay community in general has changed. What we have is a small group there, what I might refer to as the evil carnivals of medicine who feel that they're just going to ignore good advice, advice of their peers and advice

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of the Health Department and their physicians and everyone else. And they're going to go on in some fatalistic way, possibly, as I have said, playing Russian roulette. But I think the most of the community, the very large percentage has made some very drastic changes. And unfortunately,

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the bathhouse issue tends to cloud that. Okay, thank you very much for your call. We have another caller on line one. Good evening. You're on open line. Well, I'd like to congratulate Dr Silverman. I think it's commendable that that he went ahead with his idea and

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that I believe it will stop the the spread of AIDS, or at least slow down the spread of AIDS. And I kind of resent the fact that none of the politicians are very few up until this point has been involved in this situation. I think that

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there afraid of losing votes from the gay community, and I think that a lot of the gaze are pretty careless with their attitudes. They don't care if other gays get the disease and they care even less. I think about the stray population in San Francisco, Okay,

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Would you like to have Dr Silverman comment? Well, there's not too much to say, really. I think the issue is a very complex, very controversial issue. There's obviously a lot of politics as far as a number of people are concerned. I have tried to stay above

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that and use basically health reasons for the actions I have taken. And that's why the baths weren't closed 18 months ago and why they are being closed today. I think my answer to the person before you, I think, clarifies your second point. Politically speaking, How has

00:19:46.760 - 00:20:04.020

the gay community generally received this action? Well, Johnny, you know when you talk about the gay community. It's like the straight community. It's not a monolithic group at all. And I think there's every everything in the spectrum, from 100% total support to 100% total objection to

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it and then a lot in the middle, many of whom would have preferred the bath houses too close, but not to have the government close it and which, to be honest with you, I would have preferred. But there just wasn't that move in the community to

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do it from within. So it had to be done from without. Okay, we're going to take another caller. We have a caller on line two. Good evening. You're on open line. Good evening. My call closely resembles the lady before this about the gay community we've had

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in the Chronicle that victims of AIDS themselves were a group opposed to the closing of the bath houses. And I was just wondering if those people felt that maybe their participation in bath houses, if they did, didn't help in their contacting of the disease. Or have

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you spoken to them personally? Any victims? I've spoken to a number of people with AIDS and to tell you the truth, have been surprised almost to a person. They have been opposed to any action to close the bath houses. I haven't quite figured that out. I

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think there are some incredible psychological things that are going on. It's they're going to be some very fascinating books on this subject, and maybe they'll clarify some of that. But the reasons why, uh, I think, uh, most of the people I've talked to and maybe it's

00:21:20.350 - 00:21:37.460

been a select group have been the same as others. They fear that their certainly maybe, or they fear there's a a possibility that there may be closures of other types of facilities that rights will be infringed upon. And certainly, I'm hopeful that that won't be. I

00:21:37.460 - 00:21:53.270

think San Francisco is the liberal city that it is. The understanding the compassionate city that it is to have taken this action indicates that it was not a homophobic reaction and should not be seen as such either in San Francisco or anywhere else in the country.

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Okay, thank you very much for your call. We have a caller on line three. Good evening. You're an open line. Yes, I would like to ask Dr Silverman. I am an employee of a bathhouse, and I would like to know, throughout all of this nothing has

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been mentioned about the employees. We pay taxes, we pay pg knee repair rents, just like everybody else. Does he have any plans for us? Second, that border health has been coming in here telling us we have to do this. We have to put up these fires.

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We have to put up that fire. We have to get this side of the door. We have to get that outdoor, which we are doing. But yet Dr Silverman still turns around. I want to close it down. Why? Well, to answer your first question, I'm sorry

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that your livelihood will be affected by this. Uh, I think that the bathhouses that sex clubs with the other facilities that didn't close their employees are still working the ones I'm saying that we didn't shut down because they changed the type of operation. If the owner

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of the establishment that you're working in had that kind of concern for you as well as the patrons, he could still be in business. You'd still have a livelihood, and there would not be the spread of AIDS in your facility. Uh, the fact that we've closed

00:23:14.620 - 00:23:29.630

down the ones even though you've put up that information as I said earlier in the program, that information, though put up, is certainly helpful. It has not appeared through studies that we have made to have very much of an impact on the patrons. And in fact,

00:23:29.640 - 00:23:45.220

the inspections that we've made over the past few weeks indicates that were right about that. Okay, thank you very much for your call. We have a caller on line for Good evening. You're on open line. So, Doctor, thank you so very much. You're one of the

00:23:45.230 - 00:24:02.930

finest people in your industry, and we're very lucky to have you in the very I wish we have one in Oakland as well as you. But I understand that right now in San Cisco itself, their tests that people can take to find out if they have

00:24:02.930 - 00:24:20.220

the eight antibodies and is that test going to be available to all areas so people can be tested. And if you do have the antibodies, does that mean that you do have AIDS? Two very good questions. The answer to the first, it will be available, probably

00:24:20.220 - 00:24:35.590

through most blood banks in order to screen blood donations beginning the first of the year. Uh, the second part of your question is really the toughie. And that is what does it mean if you get the antibody test? Uh, and that's why I think some people

00:24:35.590 - 00:24:50.040

who get the test may not be any better off for knowing it's an example of where our technology has outstripped our intellect. The antibody test, if it's positive, can mean one of any one of the following that you've been exposed to the virus and you've dealt

00:24:50.040 - 00:25:04.220

with it. And you no longer have to worry because your immune you've been a second could be that you're exposed to the virus, uh, and that you are carrying it but may never come down with AIDS. Third, you've been exposed, and you have pre AIDS fourth

00:25:04.220 - 00:25:21.300

that you've been exposed and you have AIDS. Obviously, from what I've said, it runs the complete gamut from, in essence, total health to the terrible disease of AIDS. And unfortunately, at this point in time, a positive test doesn't tell you which one of those four categories

00:25:21.300 - 00:25:35.440

you're in Okay, Thank you very much for your call. We have a caller on line one. Good evening. You're on open line. Hello, Dr Silverman. I'm calling from San Francisco, and I would like to commend you for your efforts on behalf of the gay community. My

00:25:35.440 - 00:25:52.050

quits somewhat different than the others you've been asked tonight. And that is, um there are many gay men in San Francisco who have never frequented bath houses and yet are confronted with the statement or the fact that the period of incubation of ages, six months to

00:25:52.050 - 00:26:06.880

five years I'd like to know what the city is doing in terms of mental health for the people who are still in good health but may come down with it. Seems like the embassy being placed on a small minority of people. And yet there's a vast

00:26:06.880 - 00:26:22.320

majority who are worried about possibly getting AIDS three years down the line. I'd like your thoughts on this question. Excellent. That's a very good point. And actually, we have I'm proud to say, the probably the model program in the country and probably the world with regard

00:26:22.320 - 00:26:36.690

to AIDS. And what makes it so is the full spectrum of services, and one of them that I think speaks to just what you're talking about is counseling service for the worried well, those individuals and the high risk group who have not come down with the

00:26:36.690 - 00:26:54.590

disease, who need help dealing with this whole situation and maybe help and how to prevent the spread of disease. And if you call our AIDS coordinating office in San Francisco, they can hook you up with the various services. Shanti provides counseling. You can call directly to

00:26:54.590 - 00:27:08.650

Shanti, and we have a number of our mental health facilities are providing just what you're talking about. And it's very important. And in fact, the question before yours about the antibody studies. We're going to have to even do more than we're doing to deal with those

00:27:08.650 - 00:27:23.100

individuals who get back those results, find out their positive and don't know how to deal with them. Okay, I'm afraid we're all out of time, and it's been really very, very interesting. And we're all going to be following this action with a lot of interest. Thank

00:27:23.100 - 00:27:54.840

you very much for coming down tonight. As I said, I know you've had a busy week. Thank you all for watching. I'm Johnny Barnes. Calvin. Goodnight. See you again next week. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Mhm, Yeah.