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the base closure committee is in town. You're going to talk to them. You're gonna have Thio, help them decide what should happen to this valuable real estate here. What are you going to say to them? From which of your philosophies will you feel most inclined to

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address to come consistent? Uh, the chair of that committee and one of its members. I've served with both of them on the Armed Services Committee. They know me extremely well, No, my politics extremely well and know that I've never approached these issues from parochial fashion but

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have always tried to approach them from principal on from programmatic and policy and economic considerations. I'll continue to do that to go any other way. They would not know that person. The Ron Dellums that they know is a straightforward, straight shooting person. And I will I

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will come at them exactly that same way to say, Look, this is a period of downsizing, the military budget, and we're gonna have to make tough decisions on and and part of the result of some of those decisions are gonna mean that basis. They're gonna be

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closed, but there's gotta be a rationale for how it's done. Now let's look at the rationale for how this was done, and I'm gonna look at the economic and look at the policy. I talked with Admiral Castle on I said, What drives this decision? I said,

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Secretary of Defense Aspen is saying that you wanna build two Super ports one on the East Coast and one on the West Coast in San Diego. His very candid response back to me was, Well, I've heard that, uh, spoken of and I've read it in the

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paper. But that's not my rationale. He said, My major rationale, waas that I'm committed to a 12 carrier Navy, I believe in a 12 carrier Navy, and I want to pass on a 12 carrier Navy to the next generation, and I had to find savings. So

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I looked at what I thought was excess inventory, and I realized that I had, ah, great deal invested in San Diego and a great deal invested in Everett, Washington. So this area then, um, was vulnerable, and I decided to put that on the list. But so

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it's clear that a he's made a decision in order to save money to maintain 12 carrier Task Force and, uh, to free money to build some new ships. Question number one is that anybody think that a 12 carrier Navy is gonna survive this increase extreme limited

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dollar environment in the post Cold War world? I don't think you need 12 carriers. I frankly don't think Aspens by Aspen Secretary Aspens bottom, uh, review is going to come back with a 12 carrier Navy. I think this is Admiral Council's commitment. The Navy's desire to

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have a 12 carrying Navy. I frankly think that that's not going to survive. I don't think that you can rationalize 12 carriers in the post Cold War world, but then let's look at that. The judgment to go to San Diego to Goto Everett. He said that

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there's a lot invested at Everett. Uh, initially I had seen ah, map that only showed a fence or gate appear in one building and some white, uh, post there laying out where others constructions were gonna come. But I've now seen updated version. There are about three

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buildings there. I look at the list counting all of the land acquisition. They spent about $240 million up at Everett, Washington. But they still don't have the pier necessary to produce the carrier on there. Still, a number of constructions. It totals, in my opinion, somewhere close

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to about $200 million to complete the process. And that doesn't include family housing. There's no family housing in that additional 190 to $200 million. Now Carrier carries 5000 people. Everett Washington is a community where the rental rate is somewhere between 5% and 10%. This is a

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private ownership, a kind of community, so you don't have a large housing on the economy. Boeing Airlines moved in there several weeks back that needed to find housing for 850 of its workers have moved a new factory into every Washington couldn't find housing in every Washington

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for 850 people. Now you're gonna put 5000 people in there. The Navy is married above the 50th percentile. Where you going to house these people? So now you've gotta add on family housing to the $200 million which then escalates the figure considerably. Second point, where is

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the nearest medical facility to to, uh, treat people who will be located at Everett, Washington. Uh, the Navy says that that at Fort Lewis, Washington, is where they're going to receive medical care. Now, it's been estimated that that is a 3 to 5 hour trip. Arduous

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driving down or not so wonderful highway from every Washington, uh, to Fort Lewis, which means a 6 to 10 hour turnaround time from the time you leave going to the hospital coming back. Well, we all know that the Navy eventually would come to the Congress and

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say, for national security needs readiness needs that that is a medical facility much too far away. We need to build a medical facility. I chaired military construction. I could tell you ah, hospital is going to cost you anywhere from 300 to $400 million. Now you take

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$200 million.192 200 million that they're gonna need to finish this place. Add on top of that family housing and add on top of that to construction of some kind of medical facility. You're into hundreds of millions of dollars at every Washington. Let's leave that for a

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moment. Let's go down to San Diego. They're gonna move to San Diego. They're gonna put three carriers in in in San Diego. San Diego has right now on the record a military family housing deficit of 12,000. All right, so there, in the whole 12,000 family housing

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units right now in the San Diego area, you're gonna put three carriers there with 5000 people each. The Navy's married above the 50th percentile. Where you going To house these people. How are you going to do it? That's going to cost money. You've got to redo

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piers That's gonna cost our estimation, Is somewhere in the neighborhood of about $200 million just to do the electron ICS and the retrofitting in order to get this done. So then you add San Diego and you add Everett and these are hundreds of millions of dollars.

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Now, the report says that to close down these facilities here in the Bay Area is a $169 million.1 time saving, And I'm saying, Well, how do you calculate that? And then when they say, Well, we've already sunk a certain amount of money into every well, you

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sunk a lot of money into this area. So we're gonna say to the commission, uh, if you compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, look at this matter and you determine because we don't get clear answers as to whether or not the economics of this

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makes sense or the policy that drives it indeed make sense. I don't think that it does now, if, um if it doesn't, then they have the possibility of reversing this decision. If it does, then let's get on with our lives. Then let's get on to the

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next phase. And that's economic conversion. That's let's bring the federal government in here, and I want to bring them in here aggressively. If that's the case, because I would like to see hundreds of millions of dollars in this area to take us in a different way,

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And if the military is gonna go, okay, then if that decision is made, then let's go in. Some other direction of today is, you know, hundreds of thousands of gays air marching in Washington, and I know that you're here because of the base closures. But how

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do you think this question of gays in the military should be resolved Where is your support and when do you think it will be resolved? Yes, I'm in total absolute unequivocal support of the president's desire, uh, to lift the ban on gays in the military. I

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frankly think that this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot. It's overstated. I think that America needs to reach a level of maturity, uh, rapidly and quickly. I think that America needs to get beyond its fears beyond its ignorance beyond its bigotry and beyond its

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its oppression, uh, and move on as a mature, dignified society, I think to continue to harm human beings on the basis of who and what we think they are is a bizarre and absurd idea. I think we've got to begin to respect human beings as a

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black man who came through a very important period in this country dream still deferred. But the civil rights movement a za matter of principle. I oppose any form of discrimination and oppression of another group of human beings. I think that we need to move beyond it.

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Consider for a moment that when young people, men and women, gay or straight step forward and volunteered to go into America's military. What they're really saying is, is that at the end of the day, if necessary, unless there's a conscientious objection, I am prepared to put

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my life on the line in defense of my country, my society, my people. That's an incredible statement, extraordinary statement, particularly in these cynical times. Now are we then going to turn around and say to a person because they are gay or lesbian? You can't make that

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statement on behalf of community. You can't step forward, uh, and assert that level of commitment to your fellow human beings. I think that that's bizarre. I would like to hope if you ask me that, that this whole issue of how we deal with with with gays

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in the military, we get beyond it. I think these are ridiculous, ludicrous, fear oriented ideas full of ignorance, and I think we need to get beyond. It is rapidly as possible. Now, if you ask me, what do I think is gonna happen in the Congress? That

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depends in one sense on timing. Now, I would have liked to have seen the president. In fact, my advice to the president Waas keep your promise. Step forward boldly lift the ban and get on with your with with your other agenda and let the Congress do

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its little dance. Because Congress is gonna dance on this issue. It's gonna play its games and that the politics that is gonna play out. But once, Mr President, you enter into negotiation with the Congress on trying to figure out how to get something that passes, that's

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going to become a difficult proposition. When I look at my committee now and the membership of my committee, I cannot say to you straight face that that that Clinton would win. In fact, I would say to you that probably just the reverse. I think that if

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it came on the floor of Congress on a straight up or down vote, lift the ban or don't lift the ban, I think that that the vote would probably be significant Victory, uh, to continue the ban on gays. That's tragic reality. Now, maybe in this process

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that it's supposed to culminate by July 15th that they will come up with some proposition that people can agree to. The problem is that I probably will be on the floor with the D. O. D authorization bill prior to July 15th. Which means that that there

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will be no president's proposal. Sort of compromise package that gets worked out there will be there by that time unless they speed up the process. And I'm suggesting that they do. But whether they will or not, I don't know. Then they probably will be an amendment.

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Our Siris of amendment. Most of them were sort of. We're going the direction of challenging President Clinton on this matter. And I think that unfortunately, those propositions may very well prevailed. But I will stand there and fight the battle Aziz diligently as I can. But at

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this particular moment, I don't see victory. Can you speak to personal influence that with the president, that with your committee members, that with the Congress from this new position that you've assumed has there been a change? Do people view you different? Oh, I would think so.

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I mean, being the chair of the committee brings brings with it a certain kind of credibility, but my colleagues know that Ron Dellums is gonna be Ron Dellums. I I Ron Dellums is not going to die sitting in the chair of the of the Armed Services

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Committee. And the point I'm making there is that Ron Dellums, who is a progressive person who is a diligent advocate of peace and and human rights and human freedom, is going to continue to be that person. But Ron Dellums, the chair is a person who has

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the responsibility of trying to help guide my colleagues towards some consensus. That consensus may not be where I my politics personally are, but then the role of the chairs to try to understand that, to try to be sensitive to that, to try to measure that I

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will lead them as far as I can. But on this particular issue, you know there's some issues that are matters of great principle or matters of such incredible visibility that they take on a dynamic and an imperative all unto the unto themselves to issue of gays

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in the military, in my opinion has done that, so I don't think that that's the issue that's gonna be, you know, that one person or the chair can control or influence members on this issue. I met with some of my colleagues, for example, earlier this week,

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and I said to them Is there a Democratic position that you might be willing to come to? Uh, that will allow us to not be totally defeated at the hands off the Republicans, who, in my opinion, want to make this a cornerstone for the next election?

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Well, I didn't really get a clear answer in that regard, and I think people want to see where Aspen comes out with this. I think, uh, interestingly enough, a number of people are very interested in where Colin Powell is on this matter. And so if they

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come up with a compromise, if it's a compromise that Colin Powell, because of how he is viewed if he says this is something I can live with, that, interestingly enough, is gonna give some members the necessary cover to to move toward that position. But Ron Dellums

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would not provide them with that. On this issue, A ZAY said. This is a matter of such high magnitude that I think people have got to step forward on the basis of what their gut instincts are and what their philosophical views are, where their principles are,

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and I'm rooted very strongly and very tightly in the position that I hold, and I'm not sure that that's gonna persuade anybody that's not willing to be there. Uh, in the first instance, when I was This is my last question when I was speaking to the

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position of influence. Um, you're not only are person with your own brand of politics, Yes, you are also one of the first African Americans to serve in the Congress. Those carried their own burdens and waits, Yes. Are you able to have the kind of influence a

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Midwest white man would have in your chair? I think that remains to be seen. And, um, if one part of the question is, you know, are we up to do it clearly? You know, the problem is that and you know, both as a woman and and

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as a za black person minority that we often underestimated under utilized, um, and and not perceived, uh, in a very realistic way, and that in some ways, that that sort of gives you an advantage because there's no way but up from that. But there's but there's

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a disconcerting aspect to it. There's a there's an anger provoking aspect to it. Where you a to this late stage you need to prove that. Because at this point in my life, I think I should have nothing to prove. You know, uh, but I think that

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that some people are still looking at us like I look at how the press covers us. I raised questions about that with The Washington Post. In fact, I had to go there and meet with them and sit in a very aggressive meeting with The Washington Post.

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And so you made Les Aspin and Sam Nunn International icons, and you have chosen not to cover the House Armed Services Committee. Although we've diligently taken the committee down a very exciting and creative and new road. And I'm here to find out why that's the case.

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And so you're right. I mean, you have to suffer these kinds of humiliations, but I've never been deterred from that. That just makes me more determined to fight harder and work harder. One of the reasons why I've not really surfaced and gone on all of the

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national television programs or what have you did? Not because I have not not been invited to do so. But on the one hand, as I said, I'm just making sure that when I come out there that I'm sharp, that I'm diligent, that I've done my homework.

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And then I'm, uh, totally comfortable and capable about all the things that I think I need to know. But secondly, in a very honest way, Velvet, I didn't get to be the chair of the Armed Services Committee playing the media game, okay? And I said that

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to a number of the press people. Where were you when I needed you? Where were you when we were offering alternative military budget and an alternative Black caucus budgets to try to take this country in an exciting direction? You didn't even dignify us enough to even

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come to the press conference. And now you want to demand an opportunity to interview me and here there, and you want to sort of rediscover the Berkeley radical etcetera. And I understand that, and I opted out of that game 20 some years ago, and I choose

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not to play that game now. I will come forward when I have something to say that's timely and topical, and you will hear from me at that time. But playing the personality game, I choose not to want to do it. If you want to know who

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Ron Dellums is, walking the Armed Services Committee and cover me doing my job on a personal basis, I have feet of clay as all of us do. You know, I've got my strengths and my weaknesses, as all of us do. I choose not to want to

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play that game. I didn't go to Washington to become a controversial personality. I went to Washington to confront my colleagues with controversial ideas, and I'll continue to try to do that. And so that's sort of where I'm coming from. And it's not been an easy job.

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And as I've indicated to you sometimes in private conversation, it's not always been easy. I've taken some blows. Sometimes that made me wonder whether I had the strength to keep on going. But when my colleague said at 1 95 to 10, you should be the chair

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of the Armed Services Committee, then I realized that it was worth standing there and not allowing them to run me away or beat me down. And now uh, with that endurance, I now have this great opportunity to turn it around, and I realized that as a

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black American, as an African American person, I have achieved the level of responsibility that very few of us have an opportunity to achieve. And I don't plan to let anybody down now that I'm in that role. Thank you, Karen. Thank you. He said to me when

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I asked him about nervous. He said the day I walked out on stage, and I don't feel I won't ever work right. So when you're nervous, you're doing your job because you care about Hispanic U. S. So that's what part of the ingredients of being good

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at what you said. I can't hear you. Now tell me. You know, we're all trying to reorganize here, my staff, that we've made some here by Friday evening, sometimes early afternoon, if I can. If you don't work, I catch the morning playing in. Get out here

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in the afternoon on Friday but Friday afternoon, Saturday, Sunday, everywhere in late summer way. Start fighting. Get the I gotta get my budget through about appropriation bills or what have you started gets hard for me to do that. But if you have a situation where I

00:20:55.200 - 00:20:57.670

could do this with different times along the way,