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I'm James Day, general manager of KQED in San Francisco. The program you're about to see deals with a subject which is controversial, delicate and, to some, downright unpleasant. In dealing with this subject, we were mindful of the fact that it is surrounded by a good deal

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of sensationalism and morbidity. We were, however, equally mindful of the fact that a problem, however unpleasant in its proportions and nature's, does indeed exist. It is the nature of our social system that the first step in the solution to a problem is a recognition of the

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problem, a gathering of the fax and a discussion of these fax in our convictions about the nature off the problem and its importance. We discussed it with a great many leaders in the field of law, medicine and religion. We found that they corroborated our conviction about

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the problem and felt as we did, that it needed to be discussed. Many of these people you will meet in the minutes, which follow one of them. The chief legal officer of the State of California has written us a letter which I would like to read

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to you, He says. The problem of homosexuality is age old in ancient Greece and Rome. This condition was apparently accepted as a way of life in this country. The opposite is true. In fact, it is hard to find any subject about which the feedings of society

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are a strong. With all the revulsion that some people feel toward homosexuality, it cannot be dismissed by simply ignoring its presence. It is a subject that deserves discussion. We might just as well refused to discuss alcoholism or narcotics addiction as to refuse to discuss this subject.

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It cannot be swept under the rug. It will not just go away by itself. And quite possibly an objective discussion of this condition might lead to a broader understanding of the subject. This program attempts to explore the problem of homosexuality to cast light into an area

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in which the shadows have long been deep. The letter is signed. Stanley Mosque, attorney general, State of California, 18% of all American men for at least three years during their adulthood have as much or more sexual experience with other men as with women. That's the estimate

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given by Dr Alfred Kinsey in his book Sexual Behavior in the Human Male in other words, approximately 15 million men in this country have or will have prolonged homosexual histories. When this fact about a person becomes known, he is, in truth, rejected. This

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is a program about homosexuality. What causes it? Is there a cure for it? What does the homosexual say about his condition? What does society feel about the homosexual? To answer these questions? Here is Dr Margaret Mead, world famous anthropologist and associate curator of the American Museum

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of Natural History in New York. Homosexuality is not only found in great civilisations like the civilization of the United States, but it is found among peoples at every level of culture, among very simple people in the Arctic, out on South Sea Islands and among the brave

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warrior like tribes of the American Indian. Um, it was found in ancient societies, and there are also some societies where homosexuality is virtually unknown. I myself worked in with one group in New Guinea, where there was not a single individual who showed any signs of identification

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with the opposite sex and where the people themselves did not recognize homosexuality at all. But when we look the whole world over, both, uh, in terms of anthropological studies of primitive people, and, uh, historically, uh, it seems very clear that whether or not homosexuality occurs to

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any extent isn't entirely a matter of culture. Now, of course, there are certain biological, uh, cues that culture ax on human beings, like all young mammals, are playful and, ah, kind of sexual roughhouse and play is one of the things that characterizes young mammals everywhere in

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the world. So there's a kind of playful homosexual behavior that is found in a great many societies and that we can think of as a prelude to courtship and later mature mating. Then also, there seemed to be of a small number of people not very many,

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but a small number who are born with a definite physiological bent towards identification with the opposite sex, and they occur in every almost every society. But whether they do anything with them or not is entirely a matter of culture, but they give cues. If you had

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one man in the society that would rather act like a woman dressed like a woman, then many others can follow his example if they wish to and finally, and this is probably more responsible in high civilizations as soon as a culture begins to discriminate between individuals

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and any woman isn't the same as any other woman, and individuals can be seen in terms of their temperament and personality. You will also get formation of relationships that's independent of sex, and this is characteristic of sophisticated high civilizations or personality matters. Uh, now, beyond that,

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a society may approve of both male and female homosexuality. It may approve of one and absolutely forbid the other. Uh, there may be regular expected roles for the homosexual so that, uh, the women will look at small boys and say a particular ones. Probably when you

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grow up, you're going to be a transvestite. Uh, there are American Indian tribes where the transvestite who can do everything a man could do, and everything a woman could do is regarded as superior to either the heterosexual man or the heterosexual woman. And there's one American

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Indian tribe where pairs of men, uh, quotes, marry each other and even pretend to have Children. So that, uh, throughout the world, whether it's a question of the relationship between teacher and pupil, as in ancient Greece or between pairs of young warriors or whether, as among

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some of the Siberian tribes or religious practitioners, both men and women were transvestites. We find that it's society that patterns homosexual behavior. It's society that tells young Children that these are possible roles or impossible roles. And it's society that treats the uh practices of homosexuality or

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the identification of an individual is only interested in playing a particular homosexual role. It's society that treats thes either a sacred, as or profane, as preferred or as criminal. It's society that turns those individuals who either by, uh, physiological bent or by a psychological experience in

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childhood, or sometimes by occupational choice, because a religious choice or an artistic choice prefer exclusive or partial homosexual practices. It's society to that says that this is either good or bad behavior and equally their societies that air so aggressively heterosexual that they deny to individuals, even

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warmth or tenderness or friendship towards their own sex, so that if we look the whole world over with all that we know about people at each period of history, we have to say that homosexuality is a potential of human beings, that human beings are deeply bisexual

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and bisexual, at different periods in their maturation, and whether the society is going to assign homosexual behavior to adolescence or to adulthood, a za appropriate for some men and no women or some men and some women, or to boo it altogether or treated as a crime

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and condemn those individuals with homosexual propensities to living a life as exiles and crime and criminals. This is entirely a matter of culture. Society has set up the way sex is to be lived, and it is within the power of each society that is able to

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change to change any one of their attitudes towards the sea. Question as they wish, the role of the homosexual is established by his society. How prevalent is homosexuality in our society? What do we know about the causes? What is Ah, homosexual? Here is Dr Carl Bowman,

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former director of Langley Porter Clinic, past president of the American Psychiatric Association. I have been a psychiatrist for 45 years, and they spent a good deal of time studying problems of homosexuality. At one time, I carried out a four year research on sex deviation for the

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state of California. Even a simple question like what is homosexuality is hard to answer. If we take only person convicted of homosexual crimes, we get a very inadequate idea of the whole problem from the standpoint of overt behavior, Professor Kinsey's classifications, which divides individuals up into

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seven different groups, is very interesting here. Number six. We have the complete homosexual, the individual who is interested only in homosexuality and not in heterosexuality. Here. Number three. We have the individual who is 50 50 half homosexual, half heterosexual. Here at zero. We have the individual

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who has no interest in homosexuality and is completely heterosexual. Okay, there's a great difference between these different individuals between the individual who is completely homosexual and the other individual, who perhaps is predominantly heterosexual, as in one and two, but occasionally homosexual. We also find that there's

00:12:13.200 - 00:12:38.870

a group of homosexual prostitute who usually have no riel heterosexual drive but who liked heterosexual Prostitutes usually get no satisfaction from such experiences, but do it solely for the money. Then we have individuals with homosexual tendencies who has never had any overt homosexual experience. These could

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be divided into two groups. One group consists of individuals who have conscious homosexual drives and who are attracted sexually by members of their own sex, but not by individuals of the opposite sex. In other words, they control their behavior to conform to conventional standards. Just a

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there. Many women who are attracted sexually by members of the opposite sex but who remain virgins then, finally, we have individuals whose homosexual tendencies are represented in the unconscious on the repressed or unconscious homosexual. The psychiatrist on study may find that the individuals unconscious homosexual desires

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are affecting his behavior and his emotional life, but that at the conscious level, the individual considers himself but heterosexual and would be much upset if anyone claimed that he was a homosexual. Therefore, when we're discussing the problem of homosexuality, we must not fall into the error

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of assuming that all the individuals so labeled are exactly alive. Generalization has become more difficult in discussing the problem. People generally think of the group we refer to as the overt homosexuals Society is interested in the overt homosexual who leads a fairly active homosexual life and

00:14:06.110 - 00:14:34.040

who may be responsible for initiating others into homosexual activity. The latent homosexuality is ordinarily no legal or sociological problem, although his latent homosexuality may result in neurotic behavior. Which brings him to the psychiatrist returning to the overt homosexual. We find that Professor Kinsey have some very

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interesting statistics as to the prevalence of homosexuality, although he himself stated that he did not have a random selection of the total population. According to Professor Kinsey studies, 4% of all adult males are completely homosexual and have only homosexual activity, 18% arm or homosexual and heterosexual

00:15:02.700 - 00:15:31.320

in their experiences after adolescence. And finally, 37% have had a least one homosexual experience leading toe orgasm after adolescence. This gives us some idea of the magnitude of the problem if we realize that one man out of six is more homosexual than heterosexual. Yeah, is it

00:15:31.320 - 00:15:50.320

possible to diagnose a homosexual simply by seeing him and talking with him for a few minutes? Many homosexuals claim that they can do this, and psychiatrists who have worked a great deal with homosexuals can undoubtedly spot a majority of them. On the other hand, the average

00:15:50.320 - 00:16:12.790

individual would fall down very badly. In attempting to do this, there is a common idea that the male homosexual is detected by body build, draft speech, general behavior It is true that is that almost anyone can spot a certain group of homosexuals by their tendency to

00:16:12.800 - 00:16:33.030

a feminine dress and feminine manage. The type of haircut, the use of perfume and even lipstick. The excessive amount of jewelry worn as well as the mannerisms and behavior may betray such an individual as homosexual. To anyone. However, there are plenty of male homosexuals who have

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broad shoulders, heavy bills who seemed to be the epitome of masculinity. It has been claimed by many observers that homosexuality is more frequent among athletes on persons in the military service, the two groups that would seem to be the symbols of masculinity. Freud regarded homosexuality as

00:16:54.000 - 00:17:16.320

an arrest of sexual development on homosexuality. Is is one phase through which all individuals past as a part of the sex development, many feel that psychological factors are most important in causing homosexuality. They emphasize the early developmental years of the child with his relationship to the

00:17:16.330 - 00:17:38.960

father and the mother as having a profound effect on the final pattern of the individual sexual behavior. Others emphasized the effect of the whole cultural pattern and feel that it may very well affect the incidents of homosexuality, and particularly the amount of overt homosexuality. Time permits

00:17:39.270 - 00:17:59.850

on Lee a very brief mention of methods of treatment in general treatment is difficulty, and particularly so in the group of so called complete homosexuals. Much will depend upon the individual's attitude and his wishes to be changed. Freud himself was not too optimistic about curing homosexuality.

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In the letter to a mother who wrote him about her son, he gave this account of his own views. I gather from your letter that your son is a homosexual. I am most impressed by the fact that you do not mention this term yourself in your

00:18:14.440 - 00:18:33.680

information about him. May I question you? Why you avoid it? Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of. No vice, no degradation. It cannot be classified as an illness. We consider it to be a variation of the sexual function, producing a

00:18:33.680 - 00:18:56.140

certain arrest of sexual development. Many highly respectable individuals of ancient and modern times have been homosexuals, several of the greatest men among them Plato, Michelangelo, Leonardo, Divinci, A and others. It is a great injustice to persecute. Homosexuality is a crime, and the cruelty to. If you

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do not believe me, read the works of Havelock Ellis by asking me if I can help. You mean? I suppose if I can abolish homosexuality and make normal heterosexuality take its place, the answer is in a general way. We cannot promise to achieve it in a

00:19:13.200 - 00:19:36.560

certain number of cases. We succeed in developing the blighted germs of heterosexual tendencies, which are present in every homosexual is the question of the quality and the age of the individual. The results of treatment cannot be predicted. What analysis can do for your son runs in

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a different line if he is unhappy, neurotic, torn by conflicts inhibited in his social life, Analysis may bring him harmony, peace of mind, full efficiency, whether he remains the homosexual or gets changed. What do other homosexuals think about these so called queens? What are their feelings

00:19:57.240 - 00:20:17.510

about themselves and their place in society? The matter Sheen Society has its headquarters in San Francisco and offices in New York, Chicago, Boston and Denver. Its aim to help its own members with counsel and legal advice and to attempt to educate the public on homosexuality. Here

00:20:17.510 - 00:20:45.550

are three members of the Mattachine Society. Harold Call president Picture Don Lucas, executive secretary and less Fisher Big Like you, we think the swish or the queen represents actually a small minority within the whole homosexual grouping. But to the public, this is a stereotype, view or

00:20:45.550 - 00:21:07.370

picture by which all homosexuals are judged. It seems these people, actually, in most cases they're not even like by the rest of their homosexual brethren because they have perhaps rejected themselves, and they feel that society has rejected them. To dispel part of this stereotype picture, we've

00:21:07.370 - 00:21:28.790

formed the Machine Society, which has as its purpose work in education, research and social service. In this whole homosexual problem, the word machine comes from the language of Provence in southern Europe. It actually means little fool, the mad machines in the medieval ages, where the court

00:21:28.790 - 00:21:50.230

gestures the clowns, the soothsayer is the teachers profits who stood behind the throne and could often speak the truth in spite of stern consequences. The purpose of the organization is to publish a magazine, the whole public discussion forums and to educate and to aid homosexuals, individuals

00:21:50.230 - 00:22:10.650

and in groups in various ways. It's not a pen pal organization, nor is it an organization for homosexual contact? We are calling for a change of law because we know the number of homosexuals is large. Speaking of the number of homosexuals here, it is a common

00:22:10.650 - 00:22:30.430

misconception. I believe that the homosexual is congregated in such a large cities throughout the country as New York, San Francisco, etcetera. But I think that we can safely say that homosexual has found everywhere in every small community, every rural district throughout the country, because we received

00:22:30.430 - 00:22:52.910

letters from such places. Encampment Wyoming Chapel, Nebraska. Old Hickory, Tennessee. All of those places and many of these letters that we receive show that the individual there is looking for assistance with a particular problem, a personality problem that he has. Incidentally, protecting the young is one

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of the important planks in the machine platform. We know that laws serving that purpose must always be enforced in this country. In our cultures, less do you think marriage is good or bad for homosexuals? There's a cover up. For instance, Well, having been married myself, I

00:23:14.310 - 00:23:34.500

would like to say that I think that a good many homosexual people would not be homosexual had they have had a heterosexual experience early in life, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a cure in any way, shape or form for homosexuality. Well, would this would

00:23:34.500 - 00:23:56.760

this bring about a, Shall we say challenge to a girl, for instance, to change a homosexual? Do you suppose? Well, many girls undoubtedly for felt that challenge. And some some have indicated that homosexuals are wonderful escorts because they are very thoughtful partners and consider it in

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being out on dates and so on. The homosexual is a security risk is another thing that is of great concern to us. And here again, we believe that is the law itself. Public attitude and the stigma that exists against homosexuality, which does in many in some

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instances, make ah homosexual a security risk. By and large, if these laws were changed, we'd find I think that the homosexual is no different than anyone else, except perhaps in his choice of a love object. He desires the same same kind of rights to live his

00:24:39.520 - 00:25:03.100

life freely and without interference, to pursue his happiness as a responsible citizen and to receive the benefits of constitutional rights, due process and protection of the law that all of us enjoy benefits and protections of the law. What law? In what state? Here is Mr Albert

00:25:03.100 - 00:25:21.450

Bandic, lawyer and lecturer at the University of California. Okay, a basic, though little realized fact, is that the statutes in this area, for the most part, are not aimed at homosexual activity is such, but rather they are aimed at certain sex acts, irrespective of the gender

00:25:21.940 - 00:25:48.640

of the participants. I am not primarily concerned here with offenses, whether homosexual or heterosexual, involving Children or those enacted forcefully or those done in public view. I am going toe limit my concern toe laws governing private adult behavior between mutually consenting persons who are adults with

00:25:48.640 - 00:26:11.350

respect to this area. The basic fact is that the laws which have been aimed at controlling such conduct are and have proved to be unenforceable. Most of our states have statutes which punished as criminal a wide variety of sexual activity adultery, for example. But these statutes

00:26:11.360 - 00:26:31.260

are largely dead letters because they are unenforceable. Since Kinsey pointed out, for example, at one half of all married males at sometime during their lives commit adulterous acts, we should were we to attempt to enforce these statutes be confronted with the probability that our country would

00:26:31.260 - 00:26:50.720

have to be turned into a jail. Now, what sorts of acts do the statutes in question aim at? Nearly all of our states have laws which punish sexual activity often Orel, genital nature and sodomy. Now, of course, these acts may be performed by married couples, and

00:26:50.720 - 00:27:07.730

that is a fact of some interest that married couples are frequently urged to engage in such activity by the many marriage manuals, which are widely available today. In addition to married couples being capable of behaving in this fashion, almost any other conceivable combination of human beings

00:27:07.730 - 00:27:27.160

may. Also, the penalties in this area for such activity are extremely severe. In maximum terms. They range from three years to life imprisonment and frequently where persons were convicted of such offenses. They are required to register with the local law enforcement authorities and to stay registered

00:27:27.740 - 00:27:52.080

and to re register upon every change of address. These laws are frequently incredibly self contradictory and totally irrational. For example, in Ohio, Orel genital sex acts, if they are engaged in by females, are perfectly legitimate. If they are engaged in by males, they are criminal if

00:27:52.080 - 00:28:13.200

they are engaged in by married couples and the female partner is active. A crime is committed if, on the other hand, a married couple engages in this activity. But the female partner is passive again. The activity is perfectly legitimate, and Ohio is no exception. Nor is

00:28:13.200 - 00:28:35.690

it in any way unusual. Clearly, if we were going to enforce these laws strictly, we would turn the country into a police state, if not a lunatic asylum. Happily, the civilized trend is away from criminal punishment off private, consensual adult sexual behavior. History has shown that

00:28:35.690 - 00:28:50.370

these laws do not work to achieve the purpose is claimed. For them, the attitude of a lady at the time of the trial of Oscar Wilde may illustrate the trend, which I am attempting to point to. Here she was asked what she thought of so called

00:28:50.370 - 00:29:07.760

deviant sexual behavior engaged in by adults. And what she said was, I don't care what sort of sexual activity adult persons behave in or engage in, so long as they don't do it in the streets and frightened the horses. But the laws are on the books.

00:29:08.340 - 00:29:29.110

How are they enforced? Can they be enforced. Here is Thomas Lynch, district attorney of the city and county of San Francisco, As district attorney, it's my job to uphold the laws of the state of California. As Mr Bendix said, our laws referred to acts rather than

00:29:29.110 - 00:29:54.150

people you might be interested in knowing what the classifications of sex crimes are. First are the crimes against Children. These are probably the easiest to prosecute, because usually there is a complaining witness present. Second, would be crimes of violence such as forcible rape. Third would be

00:29:54.150 - 00:30:18.920

forcible, unnatural acts and fourth would be crimes, which are specified in the penal code as being against the law. Because of their very nature, these crimes, such as sodomy, may be done with the full compliance of both parties. They are still illegal. It's probably obvious from

00:30:18.920 - 00:30:41.460

the very description of these crimes that prosecution is increasingly difficulty with each one. In other words, it's much easier to prosecute a crime against a child or a sex crime of violence than it is to prosecute a crime which is committed privately and willingly. As a

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matter of fact, the only way that we can prosecute these crimes committed in private private is if there is a complaint made by a third person. I would also add that what adults do in private can sometimes have some pretty shocking results for the rest of

00:31:01.180 - 00:31:25.570

society. One example would be in the field of public health. Here is Dr Irwin Breath, director of the Bureau of Disease Control in San Francisco. The homosexual appears tohave, an increasingly evident health hazard. Venereal disease. This is evident in the reports from large metropolitan areas with

00:31:25.820 - 00:31:46.550

good material. Disease control programs here in California, San Francisco and Los Angeles show that approximately 75% of males with early infectious syphilis have acquired their infection from other males. The same can be said of other large cities in the country. New York, New Orleans, Kansas City.

00:31:47.290 - 00:32:02.560

In other health jurisdictions that perhaps doesn't do that, do not have such a high figure. This may be more a reflection of the type of V D control program they have, rather than on any specific differences in the population served. How do we arrive at the

00:32:02.560 - 00:32:23.910

75% figure if the homosexual is supposed to be so secretive? Obviously, he acquired his infection from another person. And by educating him to the importance of control, guaranteeing the confidentiality of the information secured, we're able to elicit his cooperation and get this necessary information. There are

00:32:23.910 - 00:32:48.740

probably three other aspects of this that may be worth while mentioning one. The sexually active homosexual in general is probably more promiscuous than his heterosexual counterpart. The greater the risk, obviously, the greater the chance of acquiring a venereal disease to in our education about venereal disease,

00:32:48.740 - 00:33:07.440

such as in the military and what have you. We find that men get the D from girls prostitutes, and this generalization is accepted, and so many men are not aware of the fact that they can acquire a venereal disease from another male. Venereal diseases are transmitted

00:33:07.440 - 00:33:26.720

through close, intimate sexual contact, and sexual contact between two men could meet these criteria. Understandably, an infected person is quite willing to acknowledge E acquired an infection from a drinking glass a towel, but is unable to accept the idea that the partner of the previous week

00:33:26.730 - 00:33:48.050

gave it to him. Third, we find that the heterosexual frequently used a device which, although sold for the prevention of disease, is it is it's associated contraceptive powers that makes it acceptable. The homosexual does not have a similar motivation in his sexual activity, namely control of

00:33:48.050 - 00:34:09.350

conception. I would like to stress the departments of public health are concerned primarily with the control of communicable disease. It I should like to remind you that a venereal disease is not illegal. No doesn't necessarily have to be acquired through illegal acts. Therefore, health departments have

00:34:09.350 - 00:34:38.470

to be nonjudgmental in their activities. The confusion reigned in the legal circles, psychiatric circles, sociological circles concerned with the problem suggests we have no alternative by education confidentiality of the information we have, we hope we can do something about the situation. As you would expect. There

00:34:38.470 - 00:34:57.650

is disagreement about the laws relating to private sexual behavior, not only among the public, but among those concerned with the business of law. Let us hear from two of these men Representing the retaining of legal sanctions against these acts is Mr J. Albert Hutchinson, formerly with

00:34:57.650 - 00:35:22.170

the Attorney General's office and presently practicing law in San Francisco, and against retaining these laws. Mr. Morris Lowenthal, San Francisco attorney who has debated these issues often with Mr Hutchinson before the California Supreme Court, Mr Hutchinson is indicated in my introduction. My interest in this subject

00:35:22.640 - 00:35:41.310

is derived from my experience as a public officer and of course, as a parent at the present time and frequently the subject, whether these laws or perhaps any laws should be changed comes up for consideration. It is good that we reconsider these things from time to

00:35:41.310 - 00:36:00.040

time, and my point of view is to urge that there be no basic change in the existing laws. I am not concerned with the kind of punishment, but I am interested in seeing that there be on the statute books a declaration against this type of conduct.

00:36:00.800 - 00:36:19.720

These laws do not work against any group of people or any kind of person. They are against acts by whomever committed. These acts are unnatural and can have no proper purpose except the self gratification of the individual. To prohibit them would be desirable both for the

00:36:19.720 - 00:36:42.270

individual and for the society. History has shown. I believe, without question that a society which recognizes and tolerates activities of this kind freely necessarily corrodes in other respects. Therefore, if we do not declare these acts to be wrong, unlawful which is the only way we can

00:36:42.270 - 00:37:01.100

do it in our country, there is no standard for private conduct and for the youth who are growing up and getting their point of view for their future conduct as to enforcement, it may not be possible in many cases to enforce the law, but you must

00:37:01.100 - 00:37:19.570

not forget that law is enforced by the people themselves and vest. Majority of people will obey the law because it is the law. We do not tolerate self indulgence in other fields, even though on the face of it it might not hurt others on a narcotics

00:37:19.570 - 00:37:42.380

is a good example. I believe that we should have on the books a prescription against this sort of activity. It can lead to no useful end to tolerate it. And we will simply reduce our moral standing our moral determination by taking the statute books and putting

00:37:42.380 - 00:38:04.240

the crimes that are so described aside. That by itself amounts to almost and approval the individual, of course, the subject to blackmail. And I think Dr Braff has pointed out one of the most compelling reasons for prohibiting such acts. As far as the individuals concerned, it

00:38:04.240 - 00:38:26.650

also has a public aspect is readily indicated by the statistics. We would prohibit people from doing perfectly lawful acts, perfectly moral acts, if there was a danger of infecting others because they themselves were in a position to infect others. There's another point of view, of course,

00:38:27.420 - 00:38:48.530

and Mr Lowenthal will present that now. Mr Hutchinson has debated this subject with me on several occasions and is repeating many of the fictions and myths that we've heard on this subject for many years. And it's about time we looked at the practical side. He indicates

00:38:48.920 - 00:39:06.680

himself that it is impossible to enforce the laws, and you've heard from some experts, is toe Why? Because first of all their vast number of Americans involved here, the minimum number it's estimated, would be 10 to 15 million in America. Actually, Mr Kinsey at one time

00:39:06.680 - 00:39:29.650

testified to a legislative committee that 46% of the United States population has had some homosexual experience in their history. Uh, in California alone, he indicated there are over two million California males involved. But Mr Hutcheson said, well, the people enforce the laws. Is that true? Experts

00:39:29.650 - 00:39:45.100

in the field say that there's six million homosexual acts for every 20 arrests. So we see that the laws are not enforced by the police department, the district attorney or by the people themselves. Why is why are the laws on the books the common law? These

00:39:45.100 - 00:40:02.190

were not violations. Thes laws were adopted. Later, they were adopted before we had any knowledge of the true facts. Facts which had been developed by Dr Bowman by Kensi by Angle and others. These laws reflect certain fiction, some of which you've heard a few minutes ago

00:40:02.330 - 00:40:25.880

the assumption, for example, that homosexuality survives by proselytizing by teachers taking advantage of Children or adults taking advantage of Children or of other adults. But actually, as, uh, study made by a California subcommittee and sex crimes proved on Lee, a small percentage of homosexuals, just like

00:40:25.880 - 00:40:46.650

heterosexuals, attempt to seduce, assault or initiate relations with Children or with other adults. Now, the fiction that we heard here that homosexuality is biologically unnatural, there's a very common fiction. Kinsey statistics have exploded it. It's a common phenomenon among animals, and this Kinsey once expressed, and

00:40:46.650 - 00:41:06.370

either biologists nor animals were consulted when the laws were drawn. As a matter of fact, all of these studies, most of them within the last 10 years or 15 years, have shown that homosexual conduct is generally harmless to society, that homosexuals are no minister society, that

00:41:06.370 - 00:41:27.960

they do nothing to destroy the social structure or to disrupt the family. And as the legislative committee indicated, they are not homosexual, anti sexual individuals and strangely enough, they've exploded. One other myth mentioned earlier homosexuality did not cause the demoralization or decay of civilizations. They exist

00:41:27.970 - 00:41:47.770

homosexuals in every occupation in every city. Now it's not a disease, as some people have indicated or suggested. But we have now been called attention to the fact that there is an increase in venereal disease disease among homosexuals, And Mr Hutchinson says, that proves we should

00:41:47.770 - 00:42:06.210

keep the laws. It proves the reverse. The law should be removed. Why? Because the increase is due to the fact that many homosexuals hesitate to go to venereal disease centers or to their own physicians. They don't know that information will be kept confidential. Actually, they discouraged

00:42:06.210 - 00:42:24.870

from doing so with the result of material disease increases. But when we talk about material disease among homosexuals again, we're talking about a very small percentage of the homosexual population, government regulation and security programs and the armed services have made second class citizens of these people.

00:42:24.870 - 00:42:41.860

And many, uh, find persons have been dismissed from employment and stigmatized purely on gossip. These air other reasons why the law should be changed as a deterrent, of course, to crime of violence that does not exist. The laws don't reduce the number of homosexuals nor the

00:42:41.860 - 00:43:01.470

number of homosexual acts as to the moral code. There again, Mr Hutchinson is confusing as the law does sin, morals and crime. The code is a more mayor, codification of prejudices and superstitions and ancient taboos that no longer exists. The chief argument, however, against these laws

00:43:01.480 - 00:43:20.130

is that there's a great deal of blackmail, entrapment, coercion of individuals. Many people have committed suicide because of being involved through blackmail procedures. And this, in my opinion, is the basic reason why the laws must be removed from the books. There are many doors that are

00:43:20.130 - 00:43:40.380

closed to the homosexual government. Work is closed, teaching is closed. In fact, if a man is a proven homosexual, there are very few doors that are open. How about his place of worship. Is he rejected here? Is he by the very existence of his condition? Sinful?

00:43:41.800 - 00:44:01.840

Here is Rabbi Alvin Fine of Temple Emanuel in San Francisco. The problem of homosexuality is one of serious concern not only for the individuals involved in it, but also for the entire community. It is a problem that bears directly upon the integrity of family life on

00:44:01.840 - 00:44:19.810

the moral foundations of our society. It is an extremely complex problem about which we are coming to Nome or than we used to know, but not nearly as much as we still need to know. Neither for the homosexual nor for his family, nor for the community

00:44:20.290 - 00:44:41.680

has that condition been cured simply by invoking moral condemnation and applying legal prosecution and punishment. Perhaps the best guide or approach to this problem, from the religious point of view, is summed up in the teaching of Judaism that God does not desire the destruction of the

00:44:41.680 - 00:45:03.990

evildoer, but rather the correction of the evil. The present day social and legal approach to the control of homosexuality is based largely on the moral code of the Bible. It is my opinion that although the underlying morality or moral precept remains the same today. There are

00:45:03.990 - 00:45:27.520

significant and enlightened changes in our attitude towards the homosexual and our approach to the problem of homosexuality. The biblical and post biblical law regarded homosexuality as immoral. It was, therefore, simply an evil to be punished. There was no basis then for considering the problem as one

00:45:27.530 - 00:45:50.550

involving a form of pathological behavior. In brief. It is my interpretation of Judaism that homosexual practice practice is still held to be immoral but moral problem that it is we should regard and treat it as a psychological illness rather than as a crime subject to legal

00:45:50.550 - 00:46:15.600

prosecution and punishment. Finally, I would say that whatever solutions or remedies we seek and adopt in the treatment and control of the condition of homosexuality with our increasing understanding of it, we must be sure that those remedies and solutions should not only preserve the moral integrity

00:46:15.600 - 00:46:38.500

of society. But they should also be based on unenlightened moral concern for the individuals caught up in the problem of homosexual behavior. The right Reverend James A. Pike, bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of California and member of the Bar of the United States Supreme Court, Of

00:46:38.500 - 00:46:59.780

course, from the point of view of the church, homosexual behavior is not good or desirable, nor God's fulfillment had intended fulfillment for man, and hence traditionally it has been in the category of sin. But we've learned much more about human behavior through the aid of the

00:46:59.780 - 00:47:19.670

psychological sciences and psychiatry and psychoanalysis. And we recognize that very, very often this behavior is compulsive. That is, it is not the exercise of a free decision making. Uh, it is rather something that is brought upon one without the capacity of freedom. And there can be

00:47:19.670 - 00:47:41.300

no sin unless there is freedom. And therefore we do not judge all persons involved in this type of behavior, has centers, but rather seek to help through pastoral counseling and referral and collaboration with referral to in collaboration with, um, psychoanalysts and other councils of this type,

00:47:41.880 - 00:48:07.740

uh, to help. In a change, it may be by having help the person see the basic factors which have brought about this deviation all situation. This question came up in England in connection with the Wolfensohn report and our Church of England. Through its archbishop, I declared

00:48:07.740 - 00:48:26.460

itself in favor of the features of the wolfman and report which would remove the criminal aspect of free consenting homosexual behavior between adults. Uh, obviously, uh, any duress or any corruption of young people? That's another thing. But the free consenting act? Uh, not because the church

00:48:26.460 - 00:48:45.460

was changing his mind and saying homosexual behavior is an alternate way. That's Justus. Good is, uh, the heterosexual way. But because we recognize that not all things that are wrong or distortions and personality patterns should be crimes and that there are, uh, negative and dangerous aspects

00:48:45.460 - 00:49:09.740

to having certain things as crimes, as in this field, of course, blackmail, police corruption and so forth. The, um, recognition, also of the compulsive character of so much s so many of these instances, uh, makes it an inappropriate subject for criminal handling. This does not mean

00:49:09.740 - 00:49:26.270

that our concern should be any of the less. It does not mean that we should not seek to learn more and more to help persons in this plight. This is a complicated professional field where the use of the best minds in various professions are is called

00:49:26.270 - 00:49:48.120

for. They person who is in this situation is like anyone else with an illness and should be cared for as such, with love and concern and interest not casting them aside, not, uh, labeling them Azaz evil anymore than we would do. So these days with the

00:49:48.130 - 00:50:11.070

alcoholic who is in a compulsive drinking situation, they essential hope of any counseling pattern. Uh, whether pastoral, uh, or in collaboration with, um analyst is to free the person so that he can make decisions. Attn. That point, we would hope, uh, under the right influences. He

00:50:11.070 - 00:50:32.910

would decide against this way of life. But until he is free, so to decide, we can't simply, uh, simplify the problem by crying out the word sin. The doctors, the lawyers and the clergy have all had their say about the social behavior and moral conscience of

00:50:32.910 - 00:50:55.300

the homosexual. But perhaps no one has asked the most basic and important question of all. Are homosexuals themselves satisfied with the way they are from our observation? I think we'd have to say they are not. However, opinion is divided on this issue. Some people, many homosexuals

00:50:55.300 - 00:51:14.180

in indeed have known no other orientation, no other way of life. Therefore, they have maybe no basis to make a judgment of whether they are or are not satisfied. However, they are all aware I think of the fact that legal and moral sanctions are against them

00:51:14.180 - 00:51:37.970

throughout their lives, in their everyday behavior, on the jobs everywhere. These people, by and large, are unable to know and enjoy the benefits of family and the companionship which results from that. They have feelings of inferiority because of these sanctions against them. They are label security

00:51:37.970 - 00:51:58.980

risk by our government. They are treated as undesirables in the armed forces and given less than honorable discharges from the armed forces. If any trace of homosexual orientation and sometimes even association is discovered. For instance, a few years ago, a large aircraft carrier tied up in

00:51:58.980 - 00:52:20.380

the West Coast port. It had a complement of about 3000 men, and an officer told me that when that ship docked, 300 of them were given less than honorable. Discharge is now, I wonder. Certainly you can't say that the homosexual, when he has these sanctions against

00:52:20.380 - 00:52:42.350

him, is a person satisfied with his condition. Especially pitiful, perhaps, is the condition of the older, lonely homosexual, the old anti. If he hasn't established a number of other values in his life During his earlier years, he can often wind up in a very lonely and

00:52:42.350 - 00:53:06.040

often dejected situation in the machine were seeking acceptance of the homosexual in society. Whether we approve of his type of conduct or not. The fact is he is in our midst and in large numbers. We hope that by acceptance he may be spared much of the

00:53:06.040 - 00:53:25.430

division that society now points toward him and that he may thereby be able to assume his full and equal place as a human being in the community. Why did you come to see me? I guess, to cure it. I wanna be like everybody else and not

00:53:25.440 - 00:53:42.550

lead this double life. It's no fun to have a job and always worry whether someone is going to find out that I'm a homosexual. What do you think I can do for you? I don't know. I don't know whether anything could be done. I've tried dating

00:53:42.550 - 00:53:58.840

girls and doesn't work. There's no interest. Well, I suppose it would be the same if you date of the boy. The trouble is, I just can't visualize a cure. This thing seems too much a part of me. How long has it seemed this way? You wouldn't

00:53:58.840 - 00:54:13.970

be able to tell that the person you have heard is a homosexual. His parents don't know it. His neighbors don't know it. His fellow workers don't know it. There is one question left, and for parents, it will be the most important one. Actually, it is a

00:54:13.970 - 00:54:35.390

double question. What can apparent due to prevent his child from becoming ah, homosexual? And what should a parent do once it is obvious that his child is, ah, homosexual again? Dr. Carl Bowman. It is possible that homosexuality comes about from a number of different causes or

00:54:35.390 - 00:54:58.190

combination of causes and that it is not necessarily produced by the same factors in every individual. With our lack of knowledge on the many different opinions held as to the causes of homosexuality, it is obvious that we cannot come forth with some universal method of treatment

00:54:58.200 - 00:55:20.380

or of prevention. Most of us feel that it is important for the male child to have a desirable type of father figure with which to identify and for the girl to have a suitable mother figure. Children are all curious, frustrating their desire for knowledge often results

00:55:20.390 - 00:55:43.520

in their attaching greater emotional significance to such a subject. Boys and adolescents are particularly curious and inclined to experiment. The mere fact that an adolescent boy has indulged in a few homosexual experiences does not mean that he will develop into a homosexual and that he will

00:55:43.520 - 00:56:05.330

not end up with a normal heterosexual life. For this reason, parents should be tolerant and understanding about his adolescent struggle to work with his many emotional problems. If parents are disturbed about apparent homosexual tendencies on the part of the child, it is appropriate to consult a

00:56:05.330 - 00:56:26.940

psychiatrist. But this should not be done in a way to upset or disturb the child and perhaps cause still mawr emotional conflict in treatment. We would, of course, like to turn all homosexuals into complete heterosexuals. This is usually not possible. We may be able to help

00:56:26.940 - 00:56:45.300

the individual control his behavior, even if we cannot alter his homosexual tendencies. As Freud has said, we may be able to help him live with his problem in a way that will not cause him too much emotional disturbance and which will prevent his getting into difficulties

00:56:45.300 - 00:57:09.740

with others. The attitude of parents and friends will be most important in determining whether a reasonable solution can be worked out. If one male out of six is more homosexual than heterosexual in his overt behavior, and if we add those with repressed homosexual tendencies, the number

00:57:09.740 - 00:57:28.220

of homosexuals will be much greater than this. It is clear, therefore, that this is a large problem and that we're going to have to live with it. The attitude of some people is to try to treat it in a new, entirely punitive way, with the idea

00:57:28.220 - 00:57:49.670

that the more severe the punishment and disgrace, the less likely that this condition will occur at least a Sfar as overt behavior is concerned. It is interesting to note, however, that many countries and cultures have no taboos against homosexuality on that, even in Europe, the only

00:57:49.670 - 00:58:15.570

places where one finds ordinary homosexuality a crime is in communist Europe, West Germany and Great Britain. We have no evidence that there is less homosexuality in the countries that have the most restrictive laws. These are the rejected millions upon millions Ah, few of them satisfied, many

00:58:15.570 - 00:59:20.340

of them desperately unhappy. We have brought you some of the fax and presented some of the arguments, perhaps with more facts and more argument will come. The beginnings of Understanding E. This is M e t. National Educational Television.