00:00:05.040 - 00:00:44.870

do it. Yeah, for Yeah, well, handsome, we're gonna wrap a little while about a number of things. But I guess one of the most important things that they can start off talking about is the fact that you have been called a revolutionary militant. Uh, much of

00:00:44.880 - 00:01:06.140

the media has pictured you this way. It's talked about all over the world. What? What do you see as the meaning of the term revolutionary? Well, there's no single simple meaning of the term revolutionary. Revolutionary is a man or a woman who was a lot of

00:01:06.150 - 00:01:36.110

things but basically the revolutionary once, to change the nature of society in a way to promote a world where the needs and interests of the people I responded to revolutionary realizes, however, that in order to create a world where human beings can live and love and

00:01:36.120 - 00:01:57.990

be healthy and create, you have to completely revolutionized the entire fabric of society. You have to overturn the economic structure where you have a few individuals who are in possession of the vast majority of the wealth in this country that's been produced by the majority of

00:01:57.990 - 00:02:22.540

the people. You have to destroy this political apparatus which, under the guise of revolutionary government, perpetrates the most incredible misery on the masses of people. One of the interesting things about the term revolutionary is the fact that people so many people see it, uh, in the

00:02:22.540 - 00:02:42.100

context of violence that, uh, revolutionary means violence, violence, every day, every minute at any given time, no matter what the circumstances. How do you view this? This this in the context of violence? Well, of course, that's part and parcel of the same attempt to separate an

00:02:42.100 - 00:03:17.060

isolated revolutionaries from the people. Of course, revolution does not mean violence in the sense that that's its defining characteristic. Well, yeah, And that's done in a very conscious manner to mislead people and Thio lead people to, for instance, equate a progressive socialist revolution with fascism. During

00:03:17.060 - 00:03:38.850

the time that I was out in the streets and speaking throughout California, I found it incredible. How many people define socialism or communism as if it were the third vice? Certainly, of course. So in the history of revolutions and not only socialist revolutions but bourgeois democratic

00:03:38.850 - 00:04:04.340

revolutions. Also, the American revolution, for instance, you have had the occurrence of violence as a means of seizing power from the oppressor. But why? This is because the oppressors have failed. Thio acknowledge the fact that the people were right and that the people had the right

00:04:04.350 - 00:04:25.530

to control their lives and to control their destinies and lay on the ones who always initiate the violence. If people are serious about moving ahead to create, ah better society, then of course they should not allow themselves to be deterred simply because, ah, few people at

00:04:25.540 - 00:04:45.680

the top who are in possession, usually a monopoly on violence, decide that they're going to unleash all of their forces of repression to stop. Um, Angela. The interesting thing I think that's emerged is your struggle with the solid Ad brothers and your struggle with the solid

00:04:45.680 - 00:05:06.650

and trial. How did you get involved in this whole area of demonstrating and of speaking and organizing for the solid brothers? I was invited in the spring of 1970 to attend the meetings that have been organized by some of the attorneys involved in the solid Eight

00:05:06.660 - 00:05:25.180

by this case. The meeting was held in Los Angeles. I attended that meeting and there I assume the responsibility for doing a certain amount of organizing primarily on the campus is because I was at U C L A at the time Thio inform the people as

00:05:25.180 - 00:05:47.800

to what was happening to George Jackson trying to say and treat a drum girl. Uh, how, uh, this this affected you a great deal because you participated very strongly. And it, uh, you became extremely close to one of the, uh, participants of solid brothers, namely, George

00:05:47.810 - 00:06:17.250

Jackson. Uh, what what was George Jackson really like? Well, um, I became very close to the, um, members of George's family in the process of trying to organize around the solid Defense Committee. All of the, um, all of George's family Jonathan, Mrs Jackson, Mr Jackson and

00:06:18.020 - 00:06:42.210

George and Jonathan sisters who were all extremely beautiful and extremely strong people. They were all involved in the political activity around the case. I did come to have, um, a certain amount of contact primarily in direct. Of course, with George I The only time I saw

00:06:42.210 - 00:07:10.800

him was at a hearing I attended in Salinas. Um, but it it was almost impossible not to see the strength and the love that George Jackson had within himself a love that expressed itself in a million different ways. Love for his people love for oppressed people

00:07:10.800 - 00:07:31.920

of love, For for all the people with whom he had any contact, all he used Thio call them all the innocents, all the people who had not already actively aligned themselves with forces of oppression. I remember reading one of his lawyers. In fact, I read his

00:07:31.920 - 00:07:47.550

pup, but one of the letters where he said that he had no, no self he had no image. He had no no ears, no eyes. He went on to talk about this, but some of the most interesting letters were the ones that you on George exchanged.

00:07:48.140 - 00:08:13.960

Ah, they were very moving letters. Uh, you've undoubtedly had some kind of understanding as people who were struggling together. Well, where there's some common strings there that in the struggle that you felt very strongly about you and George Well, I do urge was a revolutionary. Uh,

00:08:14.540 - 00:08:43.600

George considered himself a communist revolutionary, and he felt that his revolutionary beliefs and the struggles that he had to wage were far more important than his own life. That's why he spent 11 years in prison for crime that wasn't $70 2nd, $70. And if he had

00:08:43.610 - 00:08:58.350

had at that time a good lawyer and if racism had not been what it waas, he never would have been in prison in the first place. That's what was so ridiculous about it. But it was not. I don't think that I would say that, uh, George

00:08:58.350 - 00:09:17.480

was lacking in a personal image. That was one of the things that was so a beautiful and so incredible about him that he was able to perfectly merged his political life with his personal life. There was no conflict between the two when the one was very

00:09:17.480 - 00:09:44.490

much enhanced by the other. Within his political struggles. There was a very profound personal love and identity in solidarity with all his sisters and brothers with all his comrades. Then every personal relationship he had was, uh, determined by and infused with the struggle for liberation. The

00:09:44.500 - 00:10:12.730

interesting thing about it is the fact that ah George Jackson was killed August 21st. Uh, and at that particular time, we saw some new directions occur in the prison system. For instance, there was the Attica. There was San Quentin. Uh, how do you perceive the penal

00:10:12.730 - 00:10:31.210

institutions of this particular time in regards to what they call rehabilitation and other directions that they may be taking now that that the death of George has occurred in Attica has broken loose and possibly other prisons as well. Well, things have been festering under the surface

00:10:31.210 - 00:10:52.540

in the prison system for a long time. In fact, when I became involved with solid at Brother's Defense Committee in Los Angeles, at first we simply took it upon ourselves to defend George Jackson John Cliche and flee the drum Go. But we later realized that the

00:10:52.540 - 00:11:11.490

question was much broader than that. It wasn't simply a matter of three individuals who were being subject to the repressive forces of the penal system. It was the system itself that had to be attacked. It was a system itself that had to be abolished, Um, so

00:11:11.490 - 00:11:29.290

that we eventually brought in the field of our activities to include an assault on the prison system, it hopes as a hope. Well, what's your strongly implying, I gather then, is that the character of justice is not really changing that much, even though recently we've seen

00:11:30.740 - 00:11:52.810

Bobby Seale, Ericka Huggins, Huey Newton just recently, uh, who have, uh, been freed. Is the character of justice really changing that much? Well, what is just I mean, what does justice means? Does justice simply mean that a person who has been charged with the crime is

00:11:52.810 - 00:12:11.530

gonna be acquitted? That's what happened, of course, to Erica and Bobby and Huey and the New York 21 partially in the case of Thea L. A Panthers, who were just recently, uh, on trial, they were acquitted or the charges dismissed against him. But that appears to

00:12:11.530 - 00:12:31.570

me to be a purely formalistic view of what just is empty. It has no content. If you if you can show a pick out someone single, a black person, a black revolutionary out charge him with a Nhan bailable offenses. Put him put him or her in

00:12:31.570 - 00:12:49.960

jail for two years. 2.5 years is in the case of the New York 21 I think, Andi. Then afterwards, get up with the case that you have that doesn't have any water at all. And how the jury equipped. Um, is that what justice is? All they've

00:12:49.960 - 00:13:08.960

lost? They've lost years of their life. See, what has happened in those cases is that the black revolutionary leaders have been effectively silence. They have been separated from their people, isolated from the community for one year, two years, three years. You see, this is a contrived,

00:13:09.140 - 00:13:28.280

calculated effort on the part of the powers to be the ruling class. Thio. Make sure that they're separated from their people. We'll see. There are a lot of ways in which repression can express itself. It does not necessarily mean being shot down. It does not even

00:13:28.280 - 00:13:47.150

necessarily mean spending being sentenced to prison. It could mean being detained for so long that one cannot be effective in the community. It could be it could mean being forced into exile as Eldridge Cleaver was forced into exile. And we see what has happened to Eldridge

00:13:47.280 - 00:14:04.960

and what his exile has meant for his ability to be effective in the black liberation struggle Here there are myriad of ways in which you can repress a developing liberation movement. I guess the thing that concerns me very much has to do with those unnamed blacks,

00:14:05.740 - 00:14:28.020

Chicanos, Asians, Indians, poor people who go to the to the courts every day who are sentenced. And in fact, we don't read about them we don't know about. Um uh, they are imprisoned. Uh, it's like, as someone suggested some time ago, that so many so many

00:14:28.020 - 00:14:46.140

people imprisoned, uh, did not really have, uh, the kind of adequate defense legal defense legal counsel that they needed. Uh, time after time, we have been told that, uh that people who are going before the courts have been told to plead guilty on they'd only get

00:14:46.140 - 00:15:08.090

three months. And of course, this meant an extensive amount of time in prison. But I've heard you talk about the nameless prisoners who are in who have no recourse because they did not have adequate representation. One of the things that is so incredible. And I don't

00:15:08.100 - 00:15:27.360

imagine that most people are aware of this fact. I myself wasn't aware of it until recently. Of all the people who are arrested in this country and charged with crimes on Lee, 1% are ever tried by a jury, only 1% of ever tried by a jury.

00:15:27.840 - 00:15:48.740

Which means that the vast majority of people in this country who are brought before a court either end up pleading guilty on the advice of a public defender who doesn't have the time, who does not identify with his client, who has the interest oven overcrowded court

00:15:48.740 - 00:16:13.020

system? Um, uppermost in his mind, he counsels him to plead guilty. And as you said, he trusts to make a deal Sometimes, Uh um, that doesn't work. I wonder. I wonder, Do you really see this as, uh, as a means off committing a contrived engaging in

00:16:13.020 - 00:16:35.250

a contrived effort on the part of those who make the decisions of eliminating black people? Is this a form of suppression? Are also T make sure, in other words, that black people are railroaded into prisons and to jail. In the whole history of the United States,

00:16:36.150 - 00:16:58.800

the impact of racism has been to attempt to contain black people has been to attempt to stifle the desires towards liberation. One of the ways in which this is accomplished is by trying to convince black people that they're completely powerless before this huge apparatus, and that

00:16:58.810 - 00:17:15.440

the police can just come into the community and pick someone out, kill them, as they have done on many, many occasions in the past, charged them with something they didn't do. Railroad into prison. Send them to the gas chamber. This is just one of the many

00:17:15.440 - 00:17:34.110

ways that the system and it's not ah, contrived effort in the sense that it's done consciously by a few men up. But the tough it's built into the system it's built into, it's built into the nature of the society and getting back to the question of

00:17:34.110 - 00:17:55.530

what a revolutionary is. A black revolutionary realizes that we cannot begin to combat racism. We cannot begin to effectively destroy racism until we destroyed the whole system. Now, I guess the amazing thing is that we noticed that in the state of California they have what is

00:17:55.530 - 00:18:16.090

called the indeterminant sentencing off prisoners. Uh, the adult authority has the power to determine when a person is paroled. Uh, what time? That person's parole if in fact, that person is parole. Uh, I know I talked to a number of prisoners who said this is another

00:18:16.090 - 00:18:40.720

means set up by a racist system to control the affairs and the destiny of black people. Uh, do you see this as a certain direction of providing controls on the lives of those prisoners who are in prison. Well, see, it's interesting that when the INDETERMINANT sentence

00:18:40.720 - 00:19:06.340

law was first enacted, it was presented as, uh, one of the most progressive reforms in the prison system. That's one of the reasons among many others in California today is, uh, ironically, considered to be the most progressive, uh, section of the American penal system. Originally, or

00:19:06.340 - 00:19:34.790

at least it was stated that originally the purpose of the indeterminate sentence law was to allow for the greatest flexibility in rehabilitation. That meant that of a prisoner was se charged or convicted of defense that carried, say, a straight 10 year sentence. Um, he would not

00:19:34.790 - 00:19:54.150

get 10 years, but he might get, say, 2 to 15, because it's possible that in two years he might have really quote rehabilitated himself, and it would have been overly inhuman to, uh forced him to spend eight more years in prison. But how is this function

00:19:54.160 - 00:20:16.650

in reality? In reality, the indeterminate sentence laws law has has done precisely what you say it was done. It is provided and effective, very brutal means of control over the lives of sisters and brothers who are in prison. What does this mean? It means that there's

00:20:16.650 - 00:20:33.630

an eight man board composed of composed of. And I was just looking at this paper that was done on prisons not too long ago. It gives a rundown who's on the adult authority. And it says that the six whites on the panel and check this out

00:20:33.900 - 00:20:51.990

include a former assistant commander of the Los Angeles Police Department Detective Bureau, a former FBI agent in charge of the San Francisco office. Ah, former deputy United States attorney for the Southern District of California. Ah, former district attorney for Fresno. Ah, former police chief of Richmond,

00:20:51.990 - 00:21:12.030

California, and a former prison guard in Chino. Now there's one black man on the adult authority. Now, however, he was a form of civil servant in the prison system. There's one Chicana. However, he was also in the prison system before he was appointed. Now on what?

00:21:12.030 - 00:21:37.920

What does this mean? This means they're ex police, ex agents, uh, ex prosecutors. Uh, all the things have come from a background which is directly opposed. Thio the prisoner. And of course, they're going to take the side of the the system. They're going to take the

00:21:37.920 - 00:22:00.370

side that's directly opposed to the interests of the prisoners and these people, these people have the right to set a date a parole date for certainly. And of course, now, with the increased surge of political activity and with the increasingly aggressive popular prisoners are assuming in

00:22:00.370 - 00:22:21.350

prison, Thean determinant sentence is used as a form of retaliation. It's used as a form of repression because prisoners either told or else they realized that they continue to engage in any kind of political activity. Today, I'm going to get a date. How do you get

00:22:21.360 - 00:22:36.430

to burning questions in a one time when they're they're coming in my head right now and I want to get the bed at the same time, I'll try one first. It had been suggested by the executive director of the Correctional Institution Actions of California that Labadie

00:22:36.430 - 00:23:02.620

knees that brain surgery the used on those inmates who who have violent tendencies. Also, we know that at two institutions like, uh, Atascadero and Atascadero and also Vacaville, certain drugs have been used on prisoners. Uh, this trend, uh, we note has taken place. And yet there

00:23:02.620 - 00:23:20.030

was also a very strong suggestion by the executive Director that the bottom is the the engaged in, Uh, what does that sound like? And what does that remind you of? It votes in my mind all of the horrors of Nazi Germany. All of the experiments that

00:23:20.030 - 00:23:44.980

were done in the concentration camps, Uh, people who accuse us when we say that there are very definite fascist tendencies in America today Auto Think for a moment when the director of the Department of Corrections can get up and suggests that human beings have brain surgery,

00:23:45.210 - 00:24:04.470

Thio prevent them from feeling to prevent them from reacting. Because what does on the bottom we do. Yeah, I understand that it damages the front section of the brain it destroys, destroys it by means of attaching electrodes to the brain. It destroys very vital sections of

00:24:04.470 - 00:24:32.410

the brain. I think, of course I'm not a doctor, but from what I've learned, once you receive this lobotomy, you become practically a vegetable. Of course, they maintain that, uh, prevents the patient from being aggressive and violent. But what they're really but they're really talking about

00:24:32.600 - 00:24:57.060

is, uh, stifling the political militancy that exist on the inside of the prison. You understand that lobotomy have been used. This is undoubtedly well founded. Thio suppress pain. You know, I really believe they would have actually, uh, initiated this'll policy of brain surgery had not been

00:24:57.060 - 00:25:18.690

the kind of reaction. Uh, that there waas probably the way the news leaked out was an attempt to test what public reaction was going to be like and had it not been what it waas more than likely, a whole Siris of, uh, those kinds of experiments

00:25:18.690 - 00:25:38.920

would have been, would have been, uh, initiated. But there's something that has not received widespread publicity. And that is the use of these drugs in back of ill in Atascadero that you were talking about before. Um, apparently, the drug that is most widely used is called

00:25:38.930 - 00:26:08.050

a next team. And it is, uh, used in what they call a version. Treatment. Yes, that's a version treatment to avert the prisoner from any kind of assertive activity. From what I've read, the experience of taking that drug is so frightening, so horrible. Apparently when they

00:26:08.050 - 00:26:31.970

administer it, it causes for a period of about 60 seconds, the sensation of dying It's completely relaxed, completely arrests the like suffocation. You feel like you're suffocating you feel like you're drowning, you feel like you're dying. Um, then apparently there's a psychiatrist who sits next to

00:26:31.970 - 00:26:49.940

you and discusses what you've done. It's used as a disciplinary measure and that the next time you get ready, Thio, uh, struck out at a guard or do whatever you charge was doing. You think about what it feels like because you're gonna be injected with some

00:26:49.940 - 00:27:07.850

more of its connecting. That's what they really tell them. I can imagine that once a person goes through that kind of experience off the actual sensation of dying, it is going thio begin to affect the mind. And you see, I think that we have to look

00:27:07.850 - 00:27:32.800

at what's going on in the prisons today in that respect as being a signal of what might possibly come in the society. Asshole, I think that it is, uh, probably truism by now in any given society. What goes on in the prisons reflects a very important

00:27:32.810 - 00:27:49.020

elements of society as a whole, and that you can learn something about the nature of the society by looking at what happens behind its walls among its captives. Perhaps one of the critical questions for the use of NEC team as well as lobotomy has to do

00:27:49.020 - 00:28:11.900

with who gives the proper consent for a person. Does the person, himself or herself who is the prisoner on the inmate give proper consent? Volunteer for for that? But that's what they say. They say that this drug is used are entirely voluntary basis. But what? What

00:28:11.900 - 00:28:28.700

does that mean to a woman? Or to a man who's in prison? Uh, they know. And the prison officials know that if they fail to submit to this kind of drug treatment, this is just gonna be one more strike held against them. And we get back

00:28:28.700 - 00:28:42.880

to the indeterminate sentence because many of them are on indeterminate sentences. And every time there's a strike against them on their record, this is given to the adult authority and therefore their sentences for long. It seems to me there's another thing. Also, Angela. It has to

00:28:42.880 - 00:29:05.090

do with the selection of persons. If in fact it's done for psychiatric reasons who select the persons who have the district, what's happening now There? Regan, of course, just recently talked about about from the same question, right? Uh, what they're doing at this moment is that

00:29:05.100 - 00:29:29.380

the so called violent inmates, and almost inevitably, when they talk about violent inmates, they're talking about political activists in prison. They are being transferred from San Quentin from solid ad from Folsom, which of the three major maximum security prisons in California living transferred Thio back of

00:29:29.380 - 00:29:47.130

L E. I don't think it's coincidental that these kinds of things are happening in back of ill. They're sending them down there now, supposedly for psychiatric observation. They're gonna be there for six months. Then they send them back and they send another group. Maybe this is

00:29:47.130 - 00:30:03.810

the selective process, then that they're talking about coincidental with these two things that are happening at the same time, they're probably a lot of There's probably a lot of other things which is going on now to that we just don't know about simply because it's so

00:30:03.820 - 00:30:25.580

difficult for a prisoners to get news out to the people. Angela, There's something that's taking place in the prisoners. There's an awareness that's taking place, but we've heard the term political prisoner emerged in the last few years very strongly. Uh, what is a political prisoner? Are

00:30:25.580 - 00:30:51.470

there different levels of political prisoners. Well, of course, throughout the history of the world have been political prisoners. Ah, we could even talk about something, too, who was also a political prisoner. But getting into the contemporary situation, I think that many people have failed to see

00:30:51.480 - 00:31:15.300

that the political prisoner is not only Bobby Seale, Ericka Huggins, a Huey Newton or the solid Dad brothers. There are scores of thousands of unnamed political prisoners who are now being held captive in this country. I would say that I can lay out perhaps about four

00:31:15.300 - 00:31:38.850

different categories of political prisoners. The first one is, of course, the political prisoner, the sister of a brother who's in prison purely because of his or her ideas and political activities in the struggle for liberation, the Krahn, with which that person discharged is almost inevitably, a

00:31:38.860 - 00:31:55.470

pretext for assaulting that person for political race. That would be the first kind of political prison. Then, of course, there's a political prisoner who, in a sense, has done what he or she is charged with by the authorities. And I can think of examples throughout the

00:31:55.540 - 00:32:17.650

history of this country. Yet I should point out that although he or she has probably done the thing for which the charge has been lodged against him. Uh, it's not the same. Uh, it's not a crime in the sense that the, uh, system defines it is

00:32:17.650 - 00:32:37.280

a crime, not eternal. For instance, with such a political prisoner, he was charged, and he was hanged for murder. But of course, from our perspective is black people. He was a valiant fighter for the liberation of slaves. And therefore, when he fought back on when he

00:32:37.290 - 00:32:54.120

led a slave uprising, we would not call that murder. It is murder on Lee from the a point of view of the ah system, which is trying to continue to oppress and enslave the people who were fighting back then. Of course, they're all the, uh I

00:32:54.120 - 00:33:16.820

could give you a number of examples of that type of political, but I also want the next level, uh, and that for this we have to go inside the walls of the dungeons and we see thousands and thousands of sisters and brothers who have Yeah, actually

00:33:16.830 - 00:33:40.410

been well. They have, um, been arrested and convicted of offenses which don't necessarily have political contours. But once they get into prison. And once they become aware of all of the, uh, currents and passions of black liberation and the struggle for freedom for all people, they've

00:33:40.410 - 00:34:02.720

become aware of what it is that led them to commit those offenses in the first place. They therefore transform themselves into political beings and become active behind the walls and are therefore subject to retaliation by the prison authorities. And we could talk about Rochelle McGee. We

00:34:02.720 - 00:34:25.830

could talk about George George Jackson Fleet, a Drum Go John cliche. And there's one brother who we haven't heard that much about, I think is very important to talk about him at this point. His name is Robert Wesley. Well, he's been in for quite some time.

00:34:25.970 - 00:34:52.660

He's 62 years old. He's been in for over 40 years. Uh, he was convicted of stealing a car, and it's been in for over 40 years. Apparently, Robert Wesley Wells waas and continues to be the type of black man who will not allow himself to be

00:34:52.670 - 00:35:20.770

dehumanized, who would not, um, cow tell to prison officials and who asserts his rights as a black man. Apparently, the attorney general of California wrote a letter to the adult authority, saying that they did not want a sentence set a determinant sentence set for Robert Wells.

00:35:20.780 - 00:35:37.700

They wanted the adult authority to leave it open because they knew that at some point he had to deter Indeterminant sentence. By the way, we're talking about that before they knew, they said that at some point Wesley Wells was going to become involved with a guard

00:35:37.710 - 00:35:58.640

and might possibly assault a guard. Then they could use this other horrible law that they have on the books in the state of California, which makes the death penalty mandatory for a prisoner who assault a non inmate. This letter is on file. I was informed of

00:35:58.640 - 00:36:19.350

the existence of this letter by Wesley Wells attorney. Sure enough, he was provoked into a confrontation with God. Attn. That time through a cusp adore, which hit the wall and ricocheted and hit the guards head drew a little blood. However, the guard was back to work.

00:36:19.350 - 00:36:42.220

And about a week or so, uh, Robert Wesley Wells was then charged with 4500 and receive the death penalty. Charles Gary was his attorney. Leo Branson was my attorney. Now was also working on the case. Uh, with the help of a mass movement on the outside

00:36:42.230 - 00:37:01.050

during the forties, this is in the towards the end of the forties, the death sentence was commuted, but it was commuted toe life without possibility of parole to this state. Theo, on leeway that Wesley Wells can ever get out of jail. The only way that he's

00:37:01.430 - 00:37:23.050

going thio avoid dying behind the walls of San Quentin was solid at or some other prison in the state is if Ronald Reagan would grant him executive clemency. Of course, we know what Ronald Regan is like, and we know that he's not about Thio. Make that

00:37:23.050 - 00:37:41.780

kind of a gesture. Yeah, I think that it's going to be extremely important for all of us to try to mount a campaign on Fourth Regan Thio. Let was the Wells out of prison. Rochelle McGee went through some trying times he's been in now, some 17,

00:37:41.910 - 00:38:06.260

16 or 17 years. Hasn't he on guard in his sentencing in Los Angeles? Uh, he, I think, has been in San Quentin or some eight years. A very brilliant man, I must say in many regards. He's he's certainly spoken out. Uh, Rochelle McGee will be, I

00:38:06.260 - 00:38:29.750

guess one who who will, who will find himself and similar circumstance, who has found himself in similar e think it's a very, very beautiful man is a kind of a symbol of what black people have been forced to experience in America. Uh, he was charged with

00:38:30.120 - 00:38:48.360

case of rape way know about all of that was in Louisiana e recall of our brothers who have gone to the death who have spent large portions of their life in prison because they happened to look in the direction of a white woman. Um, Rochelle is

00:38:48.360 - 00:39:16.040

another very shining example, like George and like Wesley Wells. And, like, I could go on to infinity off sisters and brothers in prison who, uh, achieve the most remarkable heights of consciousness and commit themselves to struggling for the liberation of their people. Because they do this.

00:39:16.420 - 00:39:34.520

They are the ones on whom the repressive might of the prison system comes down So strong. Angela, I ask you to bring some letters that you had received. I know you've just received thousands, but I did ask you to bring several letters I could you read

00:39:34.520 - 00:39:57.440

several of those letters for me at this time. I some are just very fascinating, but well, maybe I should just say a za preface that being in jail not been in for about 15 months now, Um, the thousands and thousands of letters that come from people

00:39:57.450 - 00:40:17.410

all over the world expressing their solidarity with me and all other political prisoners, uh, been a remarkable source of strength. And both not only for me, but also for the sisters with whom I come in contact because I always let them know what's happening on the

00:40:17.410 - 00:40:42.120

outside. How the struggle for our freedom is advancing this letter. It's a really beautiful letter written by a very, very young child apparently, Um and it says very simply, a dear Angela Davis. My name is Sarah. I wish that you were free. This is a picture

00:40:42.120 - 00:41:03.160

of you when you will be free. Love, Sarah. On the other side, there's a picture that she's drawn Is this Sarah? She says It's a picture of me You see the smile on my face And that's supposed Thio be symbolic of freedom. Yeah, yeah, We'll get

00:41:03.160 - 00:41:22.960

a lot of letters from very young Children This is something which is, uh, so very beautiful. A lot of people, somehow I have the feeling that the movement is collapsing. But I think that what is happening is that the ideas that a few people have been

00:41:22.960 - 00:41:45.300

expressing for a long time of penetrating to the masses of people. And you have, uh, sisters and brothers who will say 56 years old, who know what has to be done. There's another letter that I brought along from a 10 year old black brother, and it's

00:41:45.300 - 00:42:00.730

a really moving letter. He says, Dear Miss Davis, my mother gave me $5 for Christmas and told me to give it away to someone else that I felt needed it. I'm sending it to you because I read about what happened to you. I do not think

00:42:00.730 - 00:42:15.320

you were guilty, and I hope that you can get out of prison. I'm only 10 years old and I'm black, But from what I've heard and read, I think some people are trying to ruin your life. All those accidents, like the killing of George Jackson, were

00:42:15.320 - 00:42:38.110

on purpose. Try to hang on. We'll have our fingers crossed yours truly and he gives its name. It's a really beautiful moving later, and that's only one out of many that I've received from Children that age. Um, it makes very concrete. What? Something that Jose lofty,

00:42:38.480 - 00:42:58.120

the hostile of the Cuban Revolution, said He said, Uh, those Nino so nice. Ferrando del Mondo. Children are the hope of the world. I think this is true that way. Do have a revolution moving along and it can be seen in our Children. And I use

00:42:58.730 - 00:43:16.910

this really has quite an impact with you and then doesn't it really means a lot to you? Well, what it does is it completely eradicates this feeling of isolation thing, feeling of separation that the prisons and jails are designed to create? And that's why it's so

00:43:16.910 - 00:43:37.030

necessary for people on the outside to find, to seek and find ways of expressing their solidarity with sisters and brothers in prison. If it's a letter, I received thousands of letters from sisters and brothers in prison, and I've been trying to answer, if only with a

00:43:37.040 - 00:43:56.720

few lines, all of the letters that I get from this side of the walls. Of course, that's just a very small gesture. People on the outside have far more flexibility than we on the inside have and should begin to develop aggressive and creative means of showing

00:43:56.720 - 00:44:14.790

their solidarity and support and concern for all the sisters and brothers who are in here. You've got another letter there. I see it on the desk. And, uh, I want to hear from that one also, because I think you told me it was from a brother

00:44:14.790 - 00:44:39.470

who was in prison. This is one of the many, many letters that I received from my sisters and brothers in prison. This is from the Ohio penitential Ohio State reformatory on. And, uh, it says a friendship letter were the A relationship is they have to fill

00:44:39.470 - 00:44:54.060

out forms, the letters. A general sense of the letter says, I don't know if you will receive this letter or even if you will be able to answer it. But my admiration for you compels me to write this letter. As you can see, I'm also in

00:44:54.060 - 00:45:14.460

confinement for which I and I have been confined for the past 21 months. Then he goes on to say sorry to say my crime was selfish and stupid unarmed robbery. Since being confined, I've been allowed to go on speaking engagements during my speeches. I have endorsed

00:45:14.460 - 00:45:29.690

your actions. But most of these places I've spoken with churches and they all asked one main question. Which is, Why is Angela Davis Communist? This is a very hard question to answer, mainly because I don't feel I've been taught the true meaning of communism. This is

00:45:29.690 - 00:45:48.820

one of my reasons for writing you at the time. Hold it right there. Why is Angela Davis a Communist? Actually, I think I answered that before when we were talking about what a revolutionary is many times the term Communists. Because I think it's been used by

00:45:48.820 - 00:46:07.250

so many different aspects of our society to put down rather than thio. Let people try to understand, Uh, you know, everybody shines away from it. Uh, it's like it's a disease or something like that. And I I just you know, what I'm trying to get through

00:46:07.250 - 00:46:20.700

is that the brother here in that letter is raising a question, and therefore in his question, it seems that he's trying to say that there's some people who are plagued by that. They let that get in the way they don't. They don't want to know Angela

00:46:20.700 - 00:46:38.140

Davis is a person, or even if they do, that prevents them from coming to know Angela Davis. Well, you see, now that might be true for, uh, say the vast majority of white people. But one of the things which really impressed me when I was on

00:46:38.140 - 00:46:54.980

the streets and fighting for my job. But L A. Was that whenever I spoke to black people, whenever I spoke in the black community, very few people have hang ups about communism. I could remember many times walking down the street and having someone stopped me and

00:46:54.980 - 00:47:15.570

say, Are you Angela Davis? And I would say yes. And they would express their solidarity and say, a lot of sisters and brothers would say, Um, even though I don't really know what communism is all about, Justus, a brother here said way know that there must

00:47:15.580 - 00:47:31.640

be something good about it, because otherwise the man wouldn't be coming down on you so hard. Um, so I think that the resistance to understanding what communism is all about doesn't exist nearly as much in the black community is it does in the country is the

00:47:31.640 - 00:47:48.680

whole. This letter here is an indication of that. What he's saying is that although he realizes that this country has kept away from him and many of our sisters and brothers, the knowledge of what communism is kids, he wants to know about it. I'm sure that

00:47:48.680 - 00:48:08.830

that z when he says that, that's one of the main questions that's asked. I doubt whether there's a in the black community, at least whether there's whether they're huge contours of hostility. It's just a desire, curiosity to know. And that's something that what I generally saying.

00:48:08.830 - 00:48:26.160

I answered the brother and tried to explain in a few words why I was a communist and I said, uh, essentially the same thing that I had said when I told you why I was a revolutionary because I have a very strong love for oppressed people

00:48:26.170 - 00:48:41.700

for my people. I wanted to see them free, and I read and I wanted to see all. I wanted to see all the press people throughout the world free. Uh, and I realized that the only way that we can do this is by moving towards a

00:48:41.700 - 00:49:01.540

revolutionary society where the needs in the interest in the wishes of all people can be respected. Angela There number of women in prisons aren't they about 14 0? I think, and on a lot of people certainly would not even be aware of that. Well, that's because,

00:49:01.540 - 00:49:20.840

of course, is a worthy forces of male supremacy to which women have been subjected for so long in this society. Not that much attention has been, uh, directed towards women in prison. And there are a lot of women in prison, their sisters who are in jail

00:49:20.840 - 00:49:40.820

because of their political beliefs, their sisters who have gone, in fact, uh, in my experiences in New York, in Marin County and here I go to exercise a couple of times a week at the women's prison in, um Santa Clara County. So I do have some

00:49:40.820 - 00:49:57.300

contact with sisters, and one of the things that the sisters told me when I got over there was that, uh, they really wanted to spend their time while they were in jail studying so that they could make significant contributions to the, uh to the liberation struggle,

00:49:57.370 - 00:50:14.900

except that there was no available on material. So one of the things that I ask some of the people from the National United Committee to do was to make an appeal to people on the outside to donate a books to the sisters and Mill Peters. Yeah,

00:50:14.900 - 00:50:33.590

I know you asked my church to make contributions and and certainly they have been sending books Thio to the sisters. That mill. Peters, let me just give you one, I think very striking example of the lack of attention to women's prisons. We know about the tombs.

00:50:33.590 - 00:50:49.410

We know about Attica. We know about San Quentin. But how much do we know about the demonstrations and the strikes that took place in the women's house of detention? How much do we know about the revolt that occurred at all this in a federal penitentiary in

00:50:49.420 - 00:51:05.910

Virginia? How much do we know about that? How much do we know about all the unnamed sisters who are in prison today? And it has been your contention all along that Angela Davis is not to be looked upon as a hero. But Angela Davis, along with

00:51:05.920 - 00:51:24.210

the sisters and brothers in all prisons, must be seen in light of the struggle that's going on as it relates to toe deliberations. Well, I don't see myself is any different any more important than all of my captive sisters and brothers. And in fact, what I

00:51:24.210 - 00:51:47.100

have attempted to do within all of these restrictions that surround me, um, has been to draw people who have expressed support and concern for me into the struggle for all political prisoners. I've said on a number of occasions that one of the first experiences I had

00:51:47.100 - 00:52:05.920

in this jail here after being transferred from Marin County, uh, was very, very revealing of what the mass struggle can do for, uh, sisters and brothers in in prison. Um, when they drove me down in the wee hours of the morning and brought me into the

00:52:05.930 - 00:52:30.960

cell here, um, they took all of my clothes and made me take my underwear off. I was sitting up in the sale, huddled in blankets, freezing Suddenly a massive letters came flowing into the jail here, uh, protesting the conditions, and I don't know whether it was

00:52:30.970 - 00:52:52.900

coincidental or not, but suddenly other conditions did begin to relax. One of the things that struck me then and of course, I'm constantly away of this. Is that because of the movement that has galvanized around me. Uh, there is a lot of public attention on me

00:52:52.900 - 00:53:10.980

in my case, and there's certain kinds of things that I can directly appeal. Thio people For what about all of the sisters and brothers that we've been talking about during this interview? What about all of the other thousands and thousands who are in America's prisons today?

00:53:11.550 - 00:53:34.710

People should begin to realize that they have a responsibility to see to it. But, um, America does not head in the direction of fascism, and it begins right at the level of the prisons. That's why the prison struggle is so important, because I see it as

00:53:35.040 - 00:53:52.990

being a signal as to what the entire society will be about in the future. And that's why I think it's in the interest of all the people, many of whom may not know anyone personally in prison. But most black people, of course, have had some contact

00:53:53.000 - 00:54:12.670

with prisons. People should really begin Thio express themselves aggressively and boldly and demand that something be done about the prisons in this society. Today. Angela, we're going to stop at this point. We've reached a time where we must thank you very much for this interview. Thank

00:54:12.670 - 00:54:45.590

you for wrapping with me. And I want to say goodbye to you. Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. Mhm. Yes. There. Okay. You didn't get to meet.